Michael's Career After Thriller

[#MJforever57]

Yes you can post here.

We have alot of discussions going on here this is a new thread.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

I am not sure if OTW is underrated within the fandom. It's just that fans have a more diverse taste within MJ's discography than say critics in the media who always focus on either Thriller or OTW. So in comparation OTW maybe seems a bit less appreciated in the fandom because the fandom appreciates so many other things in MJ's works than just those two albums. (And don't forget it's the fans who keep listening to MJ's records over and over again, not the critics, who maybe give an album one or two listens and then give their two cents based on those limited listens.) Some fans have OTW as their #1, some don't particularly care for it, but that's natural in a fandom. I don't think that generally makes it underrated.

I first became a fan during the Bad era as a kid, listening to the Bad album. Then I bought all other albums but I remember it took me time to fully appreciate OTW while Bad was instantly accessible to me. Now I LOVE OTW. I think cultural background, age matters in this - eg. I noticed European and younger fans tend to gravitate more towards later works (Dangerous, HIStory) while US fans or older fans are more into Thriller, OTW. This is a gross generalization, I know, so by no means I see this is a rule with no exceptions.



This is a good point, IMO. It's easy for OTW to shine now as sounding fresh and new, when that sound is "in" again. I do remember when towards the late 80s, early 90s OTW sounded a bit weird and "dated" to me compared to the sound that was in at the time. Which I suspect is the reason why it took me time as a kid to start appreciating it. If NJS suddenly had a revival then Dangerous would sound "fresh" too in a current musical climate that is heavily inspired by that sound.

But I do agree that real instruments always make an album less suspectible to "dating" than instruments that are fashionable at a given time.

The thing is the music critics, and MJs former fans would have been just as eager to support his work post OTW and Thriller if Michael had not deviated from what was truly making successful, all of his subsequent albums would have sold more than what they actually did

 

[analogue]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

The thing is the music critics, and MJs former fans would have been just as eager to support his work post OTW and Thriller if Michael had not deviated from what was truly making successful, all of his subsequent albums would have sold more than what they actually did

BAD and Dangerous have outsold Off The Wall, and if Michael kept making Off The Wall and Thriller clones people would have said he's not original and keeps doing the same thing over and over again.

I love that all of MJ's albums had their own unique style to them.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

BAD and Dangerous have outsold Off The Wall, and if Michael kept making Off The Wall and Thriller clones people would have said he's not original and keeps doing the same thing over and over again.

I love that all of MJ's albums had their own unique style to them.

Im not referring to the style of music, Im referring to the attributes that represented the real reasons for his success and his support in his home country would not have waned the way it did

 

[analogue]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

Im not referring to the style of music, Im referring to the attributes that represented the real reasons for his success and his support in his home country would not have waned the way it did

But he didn't want to just reach his home country. He wanted to reach the entire world

 

[HIStory]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

BAD and Dangerous have outsold Off The Wall

It doesn't seem to occur to him. LOL.

But my post had nothing to do with comparations of the sales of OTW/Thriller to later albums. This is just another attempt by BBD to derail the thread in the direction of his pet topic (MJ abandoning his black fans and roots bla-bla-bla).

The mods already created a seperate thread for this, because he just keeps derailing every thread with the same thing: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137706-Michael-s-Career-After-Thriller

So if anyone wants to discuss that topic I suggest to go there. In this thread it is best to ignore it unless we want to make him successful in his derailment.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

But he didn't want to just reach his home country. He wanted to reach the entire world

He had already reached the entire world with his first two albums, especially with Thriller, the balance existed and then he lost that balance afterwards

An his intentional sales from the laye 80s on never matched what he achieved with Thriller,

And to the contrary, after Bad, he spent the rest of his career trying to regain the support of his foundational support from his homeland, especially with Invincible

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

The thing is the music critics, and MJs former fans would have been just as eager to support his work post OTW and Thriller if Michael had not deviated from what was truly making successful, all of his subsequent albums would have sold more than what they actually did

From what I know Michael's worst selling albums sold better worldwide then most if not all current acts best selling albums.

Don't buy it when anyone says Michael was washed up and done after Thriller, or bad because he NEVER was, and even in death he isn't now.

The media turned their back on MJ and tried to make it seem like he was flopping for doing the numbers he did with his later albums, but if someone did those kind of numbers now (Adele fore example) they would be lauded.:yes:
So I guess that everyone should #floplikeMike.

Additionally Michael liked to change and try new things because he wasn't a niche artist like the majority of mainstream acts are now.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

It doesn't seem to occur to him. LOL.

But my post had nothing to do with comparations of the sales of OTW/Thriller to later albums. This is just another attempt by BBD to derail the thread in the direction of his pet topic (MJ abandoning his black fans and roots bla-bla-bla).

The mods already created a seperate thread for this, because he just keeps derailing every thread with the same thing: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137706-Michael-s-Career-After-Thriller

So if anyone wants to discuss that topic I suggest to go there. In this thread it is best to ignore it unless we want to make him successful in his derailment.

Why is it when a conversation becomes what is deemed uncomfortable, then a person posing a different perspective is looked down upon

I was addressing the question by bringing the full scope of why people respond the way they do when it comes to what they prefer

As a whole, we all need to be honest

Over time, the evidence proves this reality

Those fans who grew up with Michael from the 70s to the mid 80s, they gravitate to,his music during that period and relate to it more

And the fans who grew up with Michael from the late 80s until his album History, they gravitate to that period of music in his career

When the evidence clearly points to that, I dont see how a person can be offended by that

There was no longer a balance by the time the late 80s hit and that's just the reality

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

The lack of music videos compared to other albums may have something to do with it. And the videos from it are a mere shadow compared to ones he would later create.

Agree with Matt the acoustic SOOML is far superior to album version.

Which tells me that the music itself plays a secondary or even tertiary role in many latter fan's mind when it come to MJ.

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

BAD and Dangerous have outsold Off The Wall, and if Michael kept making Off The Wall and Thriller clones people would have said he's not original and keeps doing the same thing over and over again.

I love that all of MJ's albums had their own unique style to them.

The main reason those album outsold OTW, is because of the heavy marketing campaign. OTW got barely any marketing, and there was no worldwide OTW tour. Relatively speaking, OTW probably would have sold just as many as BAD/Dangerous with all the marketing efforts. #rememberthat

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

Are you being deliberately antagonistic?

I'm not, I'm pointing out that many fans request music videos more that they would with other artists. MJ was such a visual artist.

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

Let's be honest here, BBD is absolutely on the money, MJ lost a large segment of his original fanbase. Why are we in denial here?

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

He had already reached the entire world with his first two albums, especially with Thriller, the balance existed and then he lost that balance afterwards

An his intentional sales from the laye 80s on never matched what he achieved with Thriller,

No one on earth has outsold Thriller though, so you can't really hold it against him that he himself wasn't able to.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

Which tells me that the music itself plays a secondary or even tertiary role in many latter fan's mind when it come to MJ.

No it just means that the other albums get more AirPlay on music channels or You Tube. So people are more familiar. It's more enjoyable to watch Thriller or Beat It than DSTYGE or RWY but they are inferior songs.

 

[Ms. BlueGangsta]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

Let's be honest here, BBD is absolutely on the money, MJ lost a large segment of his original fanbase. Why are we in denial here?

If he lost a lot of fans he must have gained just as many if not more then he lost.
To this day Michael has one of if not the largest and most diverse fan bases in existence, and it only continues to grow.

Additionally, I would attribute any loss of fans to the many media smear campaigns that MJ endured, and not to his musical diversity.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

Let's be honest here, BBD is absolutely on the money, MJ lost a large segment of his original fanbase. Why are we in denial here?

Let me remind you and BBD that the topic of the thread is "Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase"? Not whether MJ lost a part of his fan base and why. For that discussion there is a whole another thread as I pointed out: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137706-Michael-s-Career-After-Thriller

As that thread shows we have been through this same discussion over and over again and there is no point in derailng yet another thread (always by the same suspects) into that direction.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

The main reason those album outsold OTW, is because of the heavy marketing campaign. OTW got barely any marketing, and there was no worldwide OTW tour. Relatively speaking, OTW probably would have sold just as many as BAD/Dangerous with all the marketing efforts. #rememberthat

Exactly

 

[SmoothMJ]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

It is always the same people. I Sussed their agenda out a while ago. Best to ignore them, IMHO.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

No one on earth has outsold Thriller though, so you can't really hold it against him that he himself wasn't able to.

But the the thing is, he thought and expected the most anticipated follow up in history to do just that and if he won not have lost 22 million fans the way he did, the follow up wis in position to surpass its predecessor. Bad sold 16 million copies two months after its release and was on pace to outsell Thriller by a mile

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Let's be honest here, BBD is absolutely on the money, MJ lost a large segment of his original fanbase. Why are we in denial here?

Exactly, the issue as to why he lost that tremendous wave of support has very little to do with his style of music, if balance had continued, he never would have lost that support

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

Michael never tried to be a 'black' artist... Why would any true artist want to be put in a box like that?? He wanted to reach everyone and sell as much as possible.. And he did that!

he made music for mankind... not for any group of people.. He was too great for 1 group to claim as there own.. He was everyones

But see, this is the problem, a naive person would see it that way, but let's keep it real here, MJ knew by whitening the music, that he would gain more non-blacks, if his music were as funky and heavy as James Brown would he have gained the same support from non-blacks?

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

^ How I love the "lets keep it real" fans when it's simply your own narrow minded and downright racist opinion.

 

[HIStory]

MJ was ALWAYS a pop artist, ever since I Want You Back. The whole artistic model of Motown was to make music that is accessible to a wide audience and with a BIG emphasis on "crossing over" to a white audience. So when exactly got MJ's music "whitewashed"? And what does that even mean? Is NJS white now? Are Teddy Riley, Rodney Jerkins, Jam & Lewis etc. white? True, there was Bill Bottrell and Bill Buxer. Just like there was Toto and there was Paul MCcartney and there was Van Halen during OTW and Thriller. Fortunately MJ wasn't as narrow-minded as some of his fans are.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

But see, this is the problem, a naive person would see it that way, but let's keep it real here, MJ knew by whitening the music, that he would gain more non-blacks, if his music were as funky and heavy as James Brown would he have gained the same support from non-blacks?

If he knew this good going in, then based on the historic context pertaining to the issue of race, based on what we know and clearly see, even when its uncomfortable to talk about, instead of having one unified audience throughout the duration of his entire career, the 1st 16 years of his career, his primary foundational support was black, then after he reached the very apex, his support became predominately white,

The balance that he gained with Thriller was gone

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

MJ was ALWAYS a pop artist, ever since I Want You Back. The whole artistic model of Motown was to make music that is accessible to a wide audience and with a BIG emphasis on "crossing over" to a white audience. So when exactly got MJ's music "whitewashed"? And what does that even mean? Is NJS white now? Are Teddy Riley, Rodney Jerkins, Jam & Lewis etc. white? True, there was Bill Bottrell and Bill Buxer. Just like there was Toto and there was Paul MCcartney and there was Van Halen during OTW and Thriller. Fortunately MJ wasn't as narrow-minded as some of his fans are.

Motown's was based on the racial dynamic that existed during the time that it was founded

And the crossover model was dictated by a social climate that reinforced the notion that you seek acceptance from an audience who is deemed more important that the original audience who supported you from day one, and that original audience is slowly phased out of the equation and barely gets mentioned anymore if at all

It creates a very hostile situation because the crossover model creates a great deal of hostility and resentment without the newly found audience is not informed about it

The crossover model does not create racial harmony but ambivalence, and that model creates conflict within the artist who finds himself thrusted into it

The model creates a great deal of damage and should be done away with

And Pop is the only "genre" of music that has no point of origin, no cultural beginning. It is a distinction that relies on appropriation of whats already been done when an actual genre of music reaches fulfillment

 

[HIStory]

It creates a very hostile situation because the crossover model creates a great deal of hostility and resentment without the newly found audience is not informed about it

The crossover model does not create racial harmony but ambivalence, and that model creates conflict within the artist who finds himself thrusted into it

Please elaborate on HOW the crossover model encourages hostility. Hostility towards whom and by whom?

The model creates a great deal of damage and should be done away with

Please elaborate on how your favoured model looks like.

 

[barbee0715]

Im not referring to the style of music, Im referring to the attributes that represented the real reasons for his success and his support in his home country would not have waned the way it did

I've read countless reviews back in the day on Dangerous and History where they specifically called Michael's music "blacker." You've said repeatedly that Michael got away from his R&B roots after OTW. So, now, as you say, it wasn't the music itself, what 'attributes' represented the REAL reason for his success?
This gets frustrating unless you're specific. I saw no evidence of turning his back on his black fan base except the stories people made up.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Is Off The Wall underrated by some of the fanbase?

Im not referring to the style of music, Im referring to the attributes that represented the real reasons for his success and his support in his home country would not have waned the way it did

We have 8 pages plus the Quincy thread that say otherwise:rofl:

 

[Psychoniff]

MJ was ALWAYS a pop artist, ever since I Want You Back. The whole artistic model of Motown was to make music that is accessible to a wide audience and with a BIG emphasis on "crossing over" to a white audience. So when exactly got MJ's music "whitewashed"? And what does that even mean? Is NJS white now? Are Teddy Riley, Rodney Jerkins, Jam & Lewis etc. white? True, there was Bill Bottrell and Bill Buxer. Just like there was Toto and there was Paul MCcartney and there was Van Halen during OTW and Thriller. Fortunately MJ wasn't as narrow-minded as some of his fans are.

Hahahahahaha! But his music apparently didn't appeal to white consumers until BAD, Thriller was highly skewed towards American white consumers which a different demographic to non-american white ones. I'm talking primarily about Euro and Asian fans.

"Pop" is just some term that has to real meaning other than to place artists who are specific genre to that label. You haven't answered my point about MJ's music being lighter for a white audience. If his music was funky and heavy like that like James Brown, do you honestly think whites for the most part would care?

Teddy Pendergrass had a powerful voice, but that didn't help him attract white females that much.