MJ's religious beliefs.

[mj_brainiac]

I'm looking for the denial right now. If someone has a link....

 

[Bo G]

ok. though im not sure how we are supposed to find said articles that were posted at the time or the denial from bain. i for one dont save them not sure why anyone would.

Try Google. It gets easier as you get better at research.

i guess u just have to take the word of the ppl who were on this board at the time

No one should take the word of tabloid journalists without evidence, and no one should take the word of anonymous posters on an Internet bulletin board without evidence.

or search for them some how yourself

I've neither the time nor interest to do so. I document my own claims, and would not want someone to believe in a word I said if I didn't.

I don't mean to pick on you, but these are important basic concepts.

 

[Bo G]

His most recent spiritual advisor seems to be June Gatlin, according to NBC news (The Today Show (start at 1:10) and ET.

Everything she says about what MJ told her this spring sounds so credible that I believe it's true that she was his spiritual advisor. She seemed to have genuine inside knowledge on MJ's thinking that has since been backed up by others, and appears genuinely motivated to get the word out that he wanted Katherine to get the children, and was worried about Tohme. Her tape (in the ET clip above) of MJ talking about Tohmne sounds very authentic; this is the same MJ we hear on the Glenda tapes, which most also believe are authentic. Also, she's apparently big on environmental issues, which probably appealed to MJ.

Gatlin is also consistent with the line of nutty celebrity "spiritual advisors" that MJ was drawn to: Deepak Chopra, Uri Geller, Boteach Shmuley...

My impression: MJ didn't seem to care if his teachers were from Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or New Age spirituality -- he seemed anxious to draw from as many as possible, picking out the parts that felt good while ignoring the dark sides. His attraction to high-profile advisors and love for glitz makes me think the Vatican baptism request might be real, but there's no other indication he accepted the Catholic creed.

Back to his final advisor, Gatlin: She's happy to work with proven frauds like Derek Acorah to fake talking to MJ's ghost, presumably for pay, on the tabloid Sky News. These people are all frauds, despicable media whores and exploiters of grieving fans. Eww.

The Shmuley tapes show MJ was skeptical about the Bible. Since his JW days, I've seen no evidence other than the baptisms, if they turn out to be real, for any specific religious creed or belief, including Christianity -- only general references to God. In summary, I would classify MJ at the end as a New Age theist.

But I'll read any other links that may be forthcoming here.

 

[Bo G]

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20287787_20296936,00.html

Here is a link to a People article claiming Michael had all three kids baptised Catholic.

This report sounds credible, since it names several people who could confirm or deny: Mark Lester, Marc Schaffel, and Debbie Rowe.

Now, I was raised Catholic, and so I know at least one parent (and therefore that would mean Michael since he was a single parent) HAS to be Catholic in order to have permission. Also, weeks before you have to take classes in the RCC theology and rules and all that. You also promise though to go to church each Sunday. Not sure how they would get around that... and no one I think spotted Michael at any Catholic church or I think it'd make some news. Maybe clergy visited them at home?

This would lead me to think though that as of 2003, Catholicism was the closest thing Michael found to reflect his spiritual feelings? I am not saying this in an exclusive way, because Michael seemed very inclusive. But it would seem he would have given it a lot of thought before chosing which church to Christen his children in.

I too was Catholic, for many years. The things you're saying are technically true. Yet I know from many first-hand experiences that you can find a priest willing to bend any rules you wish if you look hard enough. It would be trivial for MJ to find priests (like doctors) eager to bend the rules to work with the King of Pop. I suspect he adored the "godparents" concept and loved the pomp and ceremony, and perhaps music, which loom large in Catholicism.

 

[DuranDuran]

I've neither the time nor interest to do so.

Some things aren't on the internet. I get information from books and maybe television interviews or newspapers & magazines I saw long ago, so there would be no link. I don't really like to read stuff on a computer anyway, so I wouldn't have any use for Yahoo or Google. I mostly use them to look for photographs.

 

[Bo G]

Some things aren't on the internet. I get information from books and maybe television interviews or newspapers & magazines I saw long ago, so there would be no link.

Well, of course. Then give the source's name, with the direct quote. If you don't have it, but remember it and can't find it after looking, definitely ask for help.

Old newspapers and magazines from around the world are free at libraries, if you're really curious about something...

An astounding number of magazines and books are free on Google Books.

Anything unsupported in this way can't be considered evidence; just rumor, gossip, and speculation. Speculation that tries to build on the facts is fun, but simply posting supposed facts without support is useless and boring for me, at least.

I don't really like to read stuff on a computer anyway, so I wouldn't have any use for Yahoo or Google.

Um, but you're reading MJJC on a computer, aren't you...

 

[DuranDuran]

Well, of course. Then give the source's name, with the direct quote. If you don't have it, but remember it and can't find it after looking, definitely ask for help.

An astounding number of magazines and books are free on Google Books.

Anything unsupported in this way can't be considered evidence; just rumor, gossip, and speculation. Speculation that tries to build on the facts is fun, but simply posting supposed facts without support is useless and boring for me, at least.

That's all well and good, but I don't think most people will remember an exact source from something they read or saw on television 10-20 years ago. I suppose somebody can go to the library and look at microfiche for ancient newspaper articles, but who wants to do all that? Some people or topics aren't popular enough to be found on the internet (or virtually impossible even with traditional sources).

 

[Autumn II]

Mlchael was very careful not to align with a particular religion, because his message was universal. He DID say he tried to pattern his life from Jesus' life. After his Jehovah Witness days, he never publically proclaimed Christianity. It seems clear that he wanted to unite the religions, through love. His message was one of unity.

 

[Bo G]

Mlchael was very careful not to align with a particular religion, because his message was universal. He DID say he tried to pattern his life from Jesus' life. After his Jehovah Witness days, he never publically proclaimed Christianity. It seems clear that he wanted to unite the religions, through love. His message was one of unity.

Uniting religions is fine, but fails to unite those who have philosophy rather than religion. He clearly understood that religion tends to be divisive, so spoke little of it.

What he DID speak often about was the truly unifying power of music and dance, of helping others and the planet. It was through these that he chose to express his universal language of love, and made it his life's focus to do so brilliantly.

 

[Bo G]

That's all well and good, but I don't think most people will remember an exact source from something they read or saw on television 10-20 years ago. I suppose somebody can go to the library and look at microfiche for ancient newspaper articles, but who wants to do all that? Some people or topics aren't popular enough to be found on the internet (or virtually impossible even with traditional sources).

My, all this time taken to whine at me. Don't research, don't link -- make yourself happy -- whatever.

Of course no one can remember an exact quote; obviously this meant about materials in your possession. And I see this will come as a shock, but millions of people working on books or articles, or just researching for fun, visit libraries all the time. They contribute valuable posts to lots of great web forums. Check out Groove Theory on this site, for instance.

And B]obviously, [/B]dear, most will not want to go beyond a few Google clicks; that's all that's needed for most of what's discussed here anyway. There are some great threads on this site where most do this. And that's all I suggested in this thread when this silly arguing started.

Don't link. But don't get annoyed when you state a "fact" and are ignored or asked for a link. Now, enough of this.

 

[*~Tink~*]

I too was Catholic, for many years. The things you're saying are technically true. Yet I know from many first-hand experiences that you can find a priest willing to bend any rules you wish if you look hard enough. It would be trivial for MJ to find priests (like doctors) eager to bend the rules to work with the King of Pop. I suspect he adored the "godparents" concept and loved the pomp and ceremony, and perhaps music, which loom large in Catholicism.

I bet you're right he may find a priest willing to bend a few rules, lol. Catholicism does have really beautiful ceremonies.

In $hmuley's book, what skepticism does Michael voice about the bible?

 

[anya.wolf]

During the MJ trial 2005 of molestation Stacy Brown ran into Michael and his children at their local place of worship to Kingdom Hall. Stacy is one of JW, while Michael used to be one of JW and apparently was attempting to return to that faith.
Besides rabbi encouraged him to reconnect to JW too and a few interviews from 2001,2005,2007 seems to confirm that.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Try Google. It gets easier as you get better at research.

yeah of course you can use that to research but im not intrrested in doing so as i saw it at the time with my own eyes. if ppl want varifaction then they can search their self for it

No one should take the word of tabloid journalists without evidence, and no one should take the word of anonymous posters on an Internet bulletin board without evidence.

what tabloid journalist.? fans posted the articles on the board at the time.those articles came from tabloids of course where else do u think they came from. you wont find any other sources to clarify it.but the articles themselves were obviously not posted on the boards by tab reporters.if u doubt the words of other posters on here who were here at the time then its really upto you to do your own research

I've neither the time nor interest to do so. I document my own claims, and would not want someone to believe in a word I said if I didn't.

well then you souldnt ask others to provide documentation for you. if you cant be bothered to look yourself. as i said i have no need to search for documentation because i was here at the time when it was posted and saw it with my own eyes. its not my problem if fans who werent cant trust the words of those who were.

 

[Bo G]

its not my problem if fans who werent cant trust the words of those who were.

:smilerolleyes: It looks like you're actually having a huge problem with it, judging by your continued flogging of this dead horse and badgering me. Would you please go pick on someone now?

 

[Bo G]

I bet you're right he may find a priest willing to bend a few rules, lol. Catholicism does have really beautiful ceremonies.

In $hmuley's book, what skepticism does Michael voice about the bible?

There's a fan edit of the book available free online that contains only MJ's words. The link is available in many other posts on this site. It's easily searchable, and there's quite a discussion on this topic in there. Michael was especially dismissive of the Biblical concept of hell, as I recall. Every fan should read this; it is a major new set of information on MJ's thinking.

 

[Bo G]

During the MJ trial 2005 of molestation Stacy Brown ran into Michael and his children at their local place of worship to Kingdom Hall. Stacy is one of JW, while Michael used to be one of JW and apparently was attempting to return to that faith.
Besides rabbi encouraged him to reconnect to JW too and a few interviews from 2001,2005,2007 seems to confirm that.

Got links for any of this?

Thanks.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

:smilerolleyes: It looks like you're actually having a huge problem with it, judging by your continued flogging of this dead horse and badgering me. Would you please go pick on someone now?

replying to your comment thats all after all its a discussion board.

 

[StaceyMJ]

:smilerolleyes: It looks like you're actually having a huge problem with it, judging by your continued flogging of this dead horse and badgering me. Would you please go pick on someone now?

Um, ok?

 

[*~Tink~*]

There's a fan edit of the book available free online that contains only MJ's words. The link is available in many other posts on this site. It's easily searchable, and there's quite a discussion on this topic in there. Michael was especially dismissive of the Biblical concept of hell, as I recall. Every fan should read this; it is a major new set of information on MJ's thinking.

Wonderful!! I had no idea. Sometimes I don't get to spend the time I would like to searching around here, and must have missed this. I have wanted so much to read Michael's parts of the book, but was waiting for a free Saturday to spend at the bookshop reading. Brilliant there is a link! I will search for it.

Glad Michael was dismissive of the concept of hell. I am too. My Mom, who remained Catholic, used to say hell was being distant in your heart from God. I liked that explaination a lot.

 

[*~Tink~*]

During the MJ trial 2005 of molestation Stacy Brown ran into Michael and his children at their local place of worship to Kingdom Hall. Stacy is one of JW, while Michael used to be one of JW and apparently was attempting to return to that faith.
Besides rabbi encouraged him to reconnect to JW too and a few interviews from 2001,2005,2007 seems to confirm that.

I'd love to read those interviews, too. The only thing which might contradict this is how excited Michael was about celebrating Christmas, and his kids celebrating, too. Also Jermaine saying the kids would not be brought up JW per se, that they would continue to celebrate Christmas and birthdays.

Can you go into Kingdom Hall if you are not JW? Or is it like the Mormon church where you must be Mormon to go inside?

 

[Bo G]

Wonderful!! I had no idea. Sometimes I don't get to spend the time I would like to searching around here, and must have missed this. I have wanted so much to read Michael's parts of the book, but was waiting for a free Saturday to spend at the bookshop reading. Brilliant there is a link! I will search for it.

Glad Michael was dismissive of the concept of hell. I am too. My Mom, who remained Catholic, used to say hell was being distant in your heart from God. I liked that explaination a lot.

Only a monster would create a hell, and I don't believe in monsters :no: After this, though, I suppose I should try to keep a lid on all my religious opinionating, because it's probably better to just objectively document MJ's beliefs in this thread. Just imagine how out of control this thread could get -- think the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition, or Afghanistan... :bugeyed

Lipstick Alley is steering people to this link for MJ's transcribed quotes. Hopefully it's intact and not cherrypicked. Maybe someone can extract MJ's religious quotes here -- it would be a good place to keep them all together. Here you go: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QO1WP8ME. (Shmuley's publishing of these tapes; and fans posting them like this, is all pretty morally ambiguous, and I haven't sorted it all out in my mind...)

 

[*~Tink~*]

Exactly! (Though I loved Hieronymus Bosch's "The Garden of Earthly Delights"... wow, wasn't that amazing for that time period!) I don't think fear of God and love of God co-habitate well for some people. I'm sure it works for some. I just don't really understand it!

Thanks so much! I'll try to collect some quotes for the thread. That's a great idea.

I'm sure everyone has read this, but I found this so cool. Most of what Beliefnet has on Michael is so disappointing- just as gossipy as anywhere. But this is nice, since it is from Michael himself.
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2000/12/My-Childhood-My-Sabbath-My-Freedom.aspx

 

[man.in.the.mirror]

Can you go into Kingdom Hall if you are not JW? Or is it like the Mormon church where you must be Mormon to go inside?

yes you can go into the kingdom hall as a visitor,but you must show respect like you would in any church,

 

[ReneeM]

I bet you're right he may find a priest willing to bend a few rules, lol. Catholicism does have really beautiful ceremonies.

In $hmuley's book, what skepticism does Michael voice about the bible?

He was having troubles with the concept of justice. He said he had seen a lot of suffering and had been through so much in his life and hadn't seen justice served in so many situations.

I agree with him on this point. There is so much suffering in this world and Michael suffered so much. There are many evil people who seem to flourish. It doesn't seem fair.

 

[Bo G]

Exactly! (Though I loved Hieronymus Bosch's "The Garden of Earthly Delights"... wow, wasn't that amazing for that time period!)

Oh. My. God. Tink, I have never seen this. It boggles the mind, and is truly impossible to believe it was painted around 1503. It could be the cover of a Black Sabbath record. [click on the image below, then click again on the rightmost rectangle to enlarge Hell].

:bugeyed :bugeyed :bugeyed

My dreams tonight will be an LSD trip in hell... thanks a lot.

 

[*~Tink~*]

yes you can go into the kingdom hall as a visitor,but you must show respect like you would in any church,

Of course. That's cool. I don't know much about JW, but have had friendly experiences with the JW who canvas. They were always respectful and so nice.

Since the Mormons do not allow anyone into their main church it always made me super curious what was in there. I mean, I'm sure it is all nice things ... but the secrecy made me want to sneak a peek inside.

 

[*~Tink~*]

He was having troubles with the concept of justice. He said he had seen a lot of suffering and had been through so much in his life and hadn't seen justice served in so many situations.

I agree with him on this point. There is so much suffering in this world and Michael suffered so much. There are many evil people who seem to flourish. It doesn't seem fair.

Yes, I can sure see why Michael would feel this way. I've thought heaps about this whole concept myself. I wish I could have talked to Michael about this so much!

In one way, the idea of karma and karmic reactions is appealing because it offers an explaination. And karma in theory can span countless lifetimes, so a person may suffer the result of a past reaction which transpired ages ago. In that theory, then, we can suffer for things we've long forgotten.

That makes sense, and the logic I guess behind it all is in action-reaction, so like a science.

I think there is more to it, though, even if karma is a portion... I don't think it explains the whole of it. There was one Indian saint who asked a follower how many people would he re-incarnate for (to help)~ to take life again on earth with all the suffering... but in order to help others. This person thought and thought and said he would come back for three or four people. Then there was a silence... and the follower asked the Guru... "how many would you come back for, reincarnate for?" And the Guru replied, "I would come back until each soul was home with God." Wow. Huge huge statement!

I think maybe we are given the chance to offer help to others this way, and in the process set ourselves up for more earthly suffering. I can see Michael being one of those souls who suffered not his own karma or what have you, but accepted a hard path knowing beforehand his sacrifice would help others. Think of how selfless he is/was...

Also... what if the dualities we experience here strengthen our spiritual "magnet"... what if the powers of duality lay in huge spiritual magnetism just below the heavenly realms... and we need the "practice" of being only attached to God alone. So, then the world is like a training camp where both good and bad things are experienced until our attachment to God is so strong, He/She is all we are drawn to.... and then for that reason we can sustain ourselves at that level in heaven, next to God?

If the powers of duality are so strong on earth, it makes sense they would increase in the spiritual world, where it is pure energy. So, our energy must be super pure. Hmmm....

 

[*~Tink~*]

Oh. My. God. Tink, I have never seen this. It boggles the mind, and is truly impossible to believe it was painted around 1503. It could be the cover of a Black Sabbath record. [click on the image below, then click again on the rightmost rectangle to enlarge Hell].

:bugeyed :bugeyed :bugeyed

My dreams tonight will be an LSD trip in hell... thanks a lot.

My bad! :lol:

Isn't it amazing for the date~ completely amazing! It's speculated Bosch may have been on absinthe, lol! Be sure to look at the far left panel before dozing off, haha!

 

[Moon Dancer]

Why people insist so much in deny hell but believe in heaven?

If as absurd as believing God but not in the Devil.

Devil, and hell too, are so so obvious that it is not needed to some book to say they exist.

However, anyone can chose. We can not chose the thing we like or the thing we don´t like XD

 

[Bo G]

Why people insist so much in deny hell but believe in heaven?

If as absurd as believing God but not in the Devil.

Devil, and hell too, are so so obvious that it is not needed to some book to say they exist.

Ahh, yes, the unifying power of religion...