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Murray Trial - 30 September - Day 4 - Discussion

[url]http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf[/URL] read this very carefully .

3 cases of deaths caused by propofol , I did a summary if you want I'll post it also but it's important to read how they reach their conclusions, what's the significance of the blood concentration, the urine concentration...etc .

It's not easy , it took me weeks to fully understand this article. Enjoy reading .

by the way did you anyone notice that all propofol purchases were made before he was officially hired? while he was negotiating with MJ and AEG his deal . that's significance isn't it?
 
ivy said:
There was a saline bag which was actually left on the IV stand. Paramedics have all testified to seeing an IV stand and saline bag

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My understanding is this IV stand had 2 bag on left side an IV bag with propofol bottle in it and on the right side a saline bag. CM only told Alvarez to take the bad with the bottle in it and left the saline bag.



It's been already processed and fingerprinted.
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Ashtanga said:
Murray was so much time with Michael, since 2006... He could have killed Michael in the past, but it did not. How could this be possible after we see all this negligence? :blink: Murray was running a risk all the time. :(








That is correct, he get this material (evidence) without gloves? :unsure:
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thank you Ivy,,,I wondered about that to....:)
 
Once again, to be clear - I think that CM used bolus+IV during that entire period. This does not exclude the fact that on the morning of 25th, he gave a bolus injection and that there was a short period of time in which the IV actually dripped.

The good news is that I'm reading a study in which they determine accurately the concentration of propofol in hair segments.
Concentrations are given for 0-2cm, 2-4cm and 4-6cm. As human hair grows at approximately 1cm/month, I think we'll find our which one of our opinions is the correct one. They took hair samples, it's in the autopsy report.
And just because you made me waste almost an hour chasing for info, I'll be mean and let you dig up this particular study if you wish.
 
Soundmind said:
[url]http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf[/URL] read this very carefully .

3 cases of deaths caused by propofol , I did a summary if you want I'll post it also but it's important to read how they reach their conclusions, what's the significance of the blood concentration, the urine concentration...etc .

It's not easy , it took me weeks to fully understand this article. Enjoy reading .

by the way did you anyone notice that all propofol purchases were made before he was officially hired? while he was negotiating with MJ and AEG his deal . that's significance isn't it?
Click to expand...

Lol at the study, it's the same one :D
Hardly qualifies as "MANY", but still.

I understood it, but what I'm saying is that CM giving general, prolonged anesthesia for that period of time, via IV's, has little to do with what happened on the 25th. And I have one more thing to check, it's 5 am here, grr.
 
The good news is that I'm reading a study in which they determine accurately the concentration of propofol in hair segments.
Click to expand...

it's about the same case I posted :cheeky:

I understood it, but what I'm saying is that CM giving general, prolonged anesthesia for that period of time, via IV's, has little to do with what happened on the 25th. And I have one more thing to check, it's 5 am here, grr.
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please focus on the significance of blood concentration , used to determine time of death . 5.1 (- 1ug/ml caused by accumuliation effect , 4.1 even less than the one found in MJ's case still death within minute) 2.5 meant longer survival time minuteS. 0,22 longer , the concentration dropped significantly.

Urine , prolonged use (1600 mg) = 5.3 , the addicted nurse also prolonged use = 5.4, suicide none
MJ 0.15 , compare it now and you will reach the same conclusion I did that's how propofol works and that's how it's measured .


A fourth case :

The third case a 37 &#8211;years-old Chinese male suspected of having fatally self administered an intravenous dose of 1600 mg of propofol (12 to 15) times the dose required for the induction of anaesthesia. Blood (femoral): 2.5, liver 22 ug/ml, urine: 3.6 ug.ml. <o:p></o:p>
 
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ss
Soundmind said:
I meant the prosecution , I was expressing my opinion on what I believe the approach they chose in this case based on their opening statement, I'm free to express my opinion right?

Nope, still I educated myself on propofol and unlike some of the medical "professionals" we see on tv Pinsky, Gupta...etc) and read about on the internet (great example would be the nurse commenting on this case which other member quoted )I did not embaress myself and claim mj was receiving thousands of mgs of propofol daily and he actually survived that long!!!! Do you really have to be a medical expert to know that was impossible ? being a medical professional makes it even worse .
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No, it does NOT "make it worse." We have a very valuable "medical professionals" thread here, and we are all capable of research via the internet. (I suggest maybe you go THERE, to that thread, to add your input, re: "expert" medical information?) And, we await the medical professionals TESTIMONY. With all due respect, as a NON professional, I suggest that you do exactly the same?

Soundmind said:
You are not paying attention to the toxicology report , read the toxicology report . It's not my problem that you are not paying attention to the results of the toxicology report NOT MY PROBLEM , you are free to believe he gave him 1000mg of propofol but don't attack me when I say that's IMPOSSIBLE BASED ON THE TOXICOLOGY REPORT . I'm telling you this is not only an opinion this is a fact , stop harresing me. if you don't agree , wait for the experts' testimonies you'll hear it this week probably in the courtroom that's how much I'm sure of what I'm saying I'M NOT SPECULATING on this issue . Clear ? Stop telling me I think I know too much this issue is not about me it's about the undisputaed facts of the case that you r ignoring.
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No one, at all, had "attacked" you. We are all sorting through the EVIDENCE, given during the trial, day-by-day. This is a very stressful time for us all, who loved Michael. This seems unnecessarily combative to me. The "facts" of the case are NOT "undisputed," until we hear the pro and con EVIDENCE.

Soundmind said:
Urine concentration was 0.15ug/ml , that's the ONLY way to determine how much propofol was given in the last hours before death and that concentration does not reflect at all amounts even close to1000mg of propofol . It's much less ,less than 100mg infact GOT IT? did the nurse mention that in her assesment ? NO . Did she ever even talk about the urine concentration? No , don't bother and search for it I already read her comments . Do you need an expert to tell us that taking one shot of demerol justified medically every 6 days does not make you an addict? NO we know that already thanks to the internet , the same applies to propofol thanks to the MANY abstracts and studies on propofol we know urine is used to measure the amount of propofol someone received prior to death and 0.15ug/ml consistent with relatively very small dose !
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Thankfully, the Murray trial will NOT be "tried on the internet."

I think that given the huge amount of love most here feel for Michael, that "devil's advocacy" is misplaced. We are watching the TRIAL, and not necessarily listening nor giving credibility to anyone who is NOT really a "medical expert."

I await day FIVE of the trial. So far, no points for the defense, and a lot of points for the prosecution, and that is a GOOD thing.

So, then, your POINT is that "Murray gave a small dose, and is not responsible for Michael's death?" Is THAT it?
 
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Soundmind;3499666 said:
please focus on the significance of blood concentration , used to determine time of death . 5.1 (- 1ug/ml caused by accumuliation effect , 4.1 even less than the one found in MJ's case still death within minute) 2.5 meant longer survival time minuteS. 0,22 longer , the concentration dropped significantly.

Urine , prolonged use (1600 mg) = 5.3 , the addicted nurse also prolonged use = 5.4, suicide none
MJ 0.15 , compare it now and you will reach the same conclusion I did that's how propofol works and that's how it's measured .


A fourth case :

The third case a 37 &#8211;years-old Chinese male suspected of having fatally self administered an intravenous dose of 1600 mg of propofol (12 to 15) times the dose required for the induction of anaesthesia. Blood (femoral): 2.5, liver 22 ug/ml, urine: 3.6 ug.ml. <o:p></o:p>
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I will have to study and research everything tomorrow, as I'm having trouble concentrating.
Thank you Milka for the links!

Have a great Sunday everyone!
 
Autumn II said:
No, it does NOT "make it worse." We have a very valuable "medical professionals" thread here, and we are all capable of research via the internet. (I suggest maybe you go THERE to add your input, re: "expert" medical information?) And, we await the medical professionals TESTIMONY. With all due respect, as a NON professional, I suggest that you do exactly the same?



No one, at all, had "attacked" you. We are all sorting through the EVIDENCE, given during the trial, day-by-day. This is a very stressful time for us all, who loved Michael. This seems unnecessarily combative to me. The "facts" of the case are NOT "undisputed," until we hear the pro and con EVIDENCE.



Thankfully, the Murray trial will NOT be "tried on the internet."

I think that given the huge amount of love most here feel for Michael, that "devil's advocacy" is misplaced. We are watching the TRIAL, and not necessarily listening nor giving credibility to anyone who is NOT really a "medical expert."

I await day FIVE of the trial. So far, no points for the defense, and a lot of points for the prosecution, and that is a GOOD thing.

So, then, your POINT is that "Murray gave a small dose, and is not responsible for Michael's death?" Is THAT it?
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yeah,,,I gotta agree with ya. As we know Michael had SO MUCH propofol in him that it killed him...enough to be sedated for major surgery,,,,,so I have to agree...we need to wait for the medical experts to give their opinion. All this back and forth of "opinions"....is driving me crazy, It doesn't make it factual info. I also agree that we have ALL been through so much emotionally that i just really cannot take any "speculation" at this point in time. We need to wait for the medical "facts" from the "experts" now. This same discussion took place 2 years ago,,,,and it did NOT end peacefully. I think that it is important for EVERYONE"...that we get peace right now and NOT bicker or be pushy about "OUR OPINIONS" Thats all.
 
So, then, your POINT is that "Murray gave a small dose, and is not responsible for Michael's death?" Is THAT it?
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well, I dare you to find a post in which I said that . Btw do you still believe Sony and AEG conspired with Murray to kill MJ ? :doh: You invested great deal of time in proving that .Were not you the one who attacked me over the lorazepam issue and disappeared during the preliminary hearing after the prosecutors presented evidence of large purchases of lorazepam in April?
 
xthunderx2 said:
yeah,,,I gotta agree with ya. As we know Michael had SO MUCH propofol in him that it killed him...enough to be sedated for major surgery,,,,,so I have to agree...we need to wait for the medical experts to give their opinion. All this back and forth of "opinions"....is driving me crazy, It doesn't make it factual info. I also agree that we have ALL been through so much emotionally that i just really cannot take any "speculation" at this point in time. We need to wait for the medical "facts" from the "experts" now. This same discussion took place 2 years ago,,,,and it did NOT end peacefully. I think that it is important for EVERYONE"...that we get peace right now and NOT bicker or be pushy about "OUR OPINIONS" Thats all.
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Thank YOU! We have threads here, that involve daily testimony in court, and not ad hoc "medical opinions" about testimony not yet given. We've been waiting for this trial, for a long time. If we need "expert medical opinions not related to testimony given yet," there is a thread available, with questions . . . and answers by professionals. MJJC has done an INCREDIBLE job at organizing trial threads, and I do think we should go to the relevant threads to state our theories? Or maybe, the creation of a "theory thread?" That might keep the daily threads cleaner? Just a thought, IMHO.
 
Soundmind said:
well, I dare you to find a post in which I said that . Btw do you still believe Sony and AEG conspired with Murray to kill MJ ? :doh: You invested great deal of time in proving that .Were not you the one who attacked me over the lorazepam issue and disappeared during the preliminary hearing after the prosecutors presented evidence of large purchases of lorazepam in April?
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:bugeyed
 
Soundmind said:
well, I dare you to find a post in which I said that . Btw do you still believe Sony and AEG conspired with Murray to kill MJ ? :doh: You invested great deal of time in proving that .Were not you the one who attacked me over the lorazepam issue and disappeared during the preliminary hearing after the prosecutors presented evidence of large purchases of lorazepam in April?
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If you wish to discuss "conspiracy theories," yourself, I suggest you go to the proper forum for that, and feel free to discuss, at will? This trial is SERIOUS, and that is what this thread is about.

Feel free to go here? http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/forums/189-The-Controversy
 
I can't believe what I am reading here. I mean good lord why the fighting?
 
No problem. I have not "supervised" anything here, actually, and am not active in the "conspiracy forum," at all. Please ignore? Justice for Michael is what is important, in the trial as it develops.

Trying to regroup, for new testimony on Monday. Hang in there, everyone?
 
I'll say this once and for all.

this is not the time or place to have personal issues with other members.

Just like prosecution and defense presenting two different versions of the events, simply accept that other people might have different beliefs than yours about what happened. And focus on the trial and testimony.
 
Thanks, Ivy. I think what is important here is the daily testimony, and what people actually say about what they witnessed. The weekend is a good time to regroup, and to digest what we've already heard, on-the-record, and under oath? There is a big difference in what people might say to media, and on twitter, or whatever, and UNDER OATH in a courtroom? This is just the beginning of the trial. More to come. ...
 
ivy said:
I'll say this once and for all.

this is not the time or place to have personal issues with other members.

Just like prosecution and defense presenting two different versions of the events, simply accept that other people might have different beliefs than yours about what happened. And focus on the trial and testimony.
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Thank you Ivy. I was about to clean the thread
And I will add to what you stated to keep the thread from derailing further

MOD NOTE
Please keep your discussion relevant to the days testimony
This thread has been derailed off topic of the testimony of the witnesses
and what was going on in court on Sept 30th. If you wish to debate in more
detail the toxology reports and your speculations of events that have not even been
addressed in the court proceedings yet open a seperate thread so you can debate your
theories in detail .. without derailing this one - Thanks for your cooperation

If you have any questions please PM me and dont derail the thread further. Thanks :)
 
Showman74 said:
OMG so I'm not going crazy... that was the same thought that came to my mind, it dosen't make sence!!
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And how does it possible to remember everything in details being shocked at that turmoil? I wonder that some ppl still can playback moments that happened more then 2 years ago. It's very hard. The mess will take place further for sure.
 
The answers some seek will surely be address in the coming weeks of the trial...so sit back and wait for it. This is only the first week and what will be proven or not will be in the court room.
 
Yes he claimed it to the dr at the hos.one question. the iv bag that alberto took down. was that found in the blue bag with the vials in the cupboard. or at least found in another bag hidden.where was it documented as been found
 
bluetopez said:
Even Worse! O_O Interesting that Dr. Cooper did testify that Murray said he saw MJ go into Arrest (saw him dieing). o_O
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What is the source of those Dr.Cooper's testimonies? Never heard about him or what he was telling.
 
magichappens said:
What is the source of those Dr.Cooper's testimonies? Never heard about him or what he was telling.
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The source is in Dr Cooper's court room testimony. Dr Cooper is a woman she was in charge of the trauma center at the Hospital the day MJ was brought in. She questioned murray at the hospital when MJ was brought in and Dr Murray told her he witness Michae'sl cardiac arrest. When interviewed by LAPD a few days later he told them he was out of the room when it happened.
 
StephluvsMJ said:
It's true. Cooper testified that when she asked Murray what happened, he told her that he had given Michael Lorazepam and that he had witnessed the arrest.
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yes I heard her testify to that too. I believe Her that Murray told her that,,,however,,,,its Murray that I don't believe. imo...if he would of witnessed Michael having the arrest,,,he probably would of called for help right away,,,,but he didn't.as we know. That is why Michael's physical condition was the way it was when the emt's got there, Murray let to much time go by,,,and by that point Michael was so far gone that nothing could save him
 
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