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Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

this is the first time murray's actually showing real emotion, he looks pissed, scared as shyte and effing mad. wonder why. he was shaking his head the whole time, looking around. for a second I thought someone would do mankind a favor and let shafer just shoot him up with the shyte he gave michael, so that we could actually have ''justice'' or better ''tit for tat''. but I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part. behaving like the victim in this case, this man makes me effing sick
 
bowen9999 said:
So, am I getting this right? Schaffer is implying that Murray gave MJ propofol via infusion then, when he realised he had ded/was dying, he took the propofol bottle off the IV stand, removed the tubing (& hid it somewhere), cut open the saline bag, popped the bottle into it and basically made it look like he'd only given Michael saline for dehydration?
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the diprivan bottle was in the iv bag as he couldnt hang the bottle up by that little plastic thing imo. so what does he do. he improvises and cuts open a saline bag and puts the bottle in there upside down. when he finds mj he removes the tubing but for what ever reason the bag with the bottle is left there. so he tells alberto to take it down and he hides it in the bag in the closet. note he doesnt take down the saline bag as thats not incriminating
 
yeah murray looked like he was about to throw up in that last shot before the break
 
I am confused. Did Murray use that extra tubing for the propofol and not use the pump? He did look really upset there for a second.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the diprivan bottle was in the iv bag as he couldnt hang the bottle up by that little plastic thing imo. so what does he do. he improvises and cuts open a saline bag and puts the bottle in there upside down. when he finds mj he removes the tubing but for what ever reason the bag with the bottle is left there. so he tells alberto to take it down and he hides it in the bag in the closet. note he doesnt take down the saline bag as thats not incriminating
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Maybe he'd taken his gloves off by that time and didn't want to leave fingerprints on the bottle.....
 
If he used the vented tubing to give the propofol then what was the purpose of the propofol bottle (vial) inside the saline bag?
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th

that little plastic handle had come off so the only way for him to hang the bottle was to put it in a IV bag?
 
looked like his effing eyes were popping out. something was up. wonder what it was though.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the diprivan bottle was in the iv bag as he couldnt hang the bottle up by that little plastic thing imo. so what does he do. he improvises and cuts open a saline bag and puts the bottle in there upside down. when he finds mj he removes the tubing but for what ever reason the bag with the bottle is left there. so he tells alberto to take it down and he hides it in the bag in the closet. note he doesnt take down the saline bag as thats not incriminating
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what time Shafer said he thinks Michael died? around 11 or 11:30?
 
Louise. said:
Did you see how freaked out Murray looked just then?! Looked like he was shaking his head as well!
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Yup! I think it just got serious for him....not that it hasn't been serious all this time, but I think it's finally sinking in that this demonstration will show him up for being a full blown liar, not only about how much propofol he gave but all the lorazepam that dripped into MJ's system as well. The missing tubing will show him up as tampering with evidence especially after Alvarez and Seneff's testimony of how Murray was seen rounding up the bottles. I bet he drained that tubing and had it in his pants pocket the whole time. Initially, I thought the tubing might have been too big or thick/bulky to fit in his pockets but when the evidence was presented and I saw how thin and delicate it really is, first thing I thought was IF he used a drip, tubing that thin could have very well fitted into his pocket.
 
If murray is so fed up at the prosecution's scenario, all he has to do is take to the stand during the defence and explain everything that did happen and be prepared to be x-examined. I won't be holding my breath.
 
He was suppose to hang the propofol bottle but couldn't so he puts it in the bag? Isn't that seriously wrong?
 
Dr Safer

Walgren

scenarios where CM gives injections, MJ doesn't have to wake up

-6 injetions, 50mg each

MJ would have stopped breathing multiple times
it's possible that CM injected after the brathing stopped , injections continued after the breathing stopped, until the heart stopped, injections could have continued after that
under this scenaro MJ would not be alive
this scenario can explains the femoral blood level
doesn'make sense, because Cm would have to reinject repeatedly

the 10 mn window beween respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest is very conservative

other possible scenario :

100ml infusion, 1000 mg

an infusion started at 9 (it is very likely that there was a bolus before, r shafer didn't include it for simplicity, it wouldn't have made a big difference)

when you give a drip , there is not much difference beween blood and brain concentration
levels rise quickly at first, until the time liver metobalises the same amount as what gets into the bloodstream, then levels are rising slowly.
When you approach apneic threshold , breathing would have slowed down at a slow pace, carbon dioxide would have gone up . If there had been capnometry, you would have seen the carbon dioxide go up, carbone dioxide would have maintained the breathing through the apneic theshold.

Dr Shafer has studied the fact that carbon dioxide stimulates breathing.

At 10 am, MJ continues breathing , without capnometry CM deosn't see that there is a problem. Near noon, carbon dioxide can no longer compensate, so breathing slows down to the point of apnea

how could have CM detected that there was a problem : with capnometry, pulse oximetry when the breathing slow down; If Cm ha been with MJ, he would have seen the slow breathing, could easily have turned down the prop,

between 11 to 11 45 , breathing would have slowed down, sometimes interrupted; possibly with sounds

around 11 30 to 11 45, breathing would have stopped, there is no oxygen in the lungs, Mj died at about noon, with the infusion still running

his femoral blood level is close to apnea level

it is the only scenario Dr shafer could generate that produces the femoral level , consistent with CM 's explanations of how he gave propofol, and this scenario fits all the data in this case. This what Dr Shafer thinks happened

CM baiught 130 100ml Vials = 1 vial per night


CM might have thought everything was OK , and walked out of the room
 
wendy2004 said:
Yup! I think it just got serious for him....not that it hasn't been serious all this time, but I think it's finally sinking in that this demonstration will show him up for being a full blown liar, not only about how much propofol he that he gave all the lorazepam that dripped into MJ's system. The missing tubing will show him up as tampering with evidence especially after Alvarez and Seneff's testimony of how Murray was seen rounding up the bottles. I bet he drained that tubing and had it in his pants pocket the whole time. Initially, I thought the tubing might have been too big or thick/bulky to fit in his pockets but when the evidence was presented and I saw how thin and delicate it really is, first thing I thought was IF he used a drip, tubing that thin could have very well fitted into his pocket.
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That is quite possible, he just couldn't take everything with him. And when they wouldn't let him back into the house, he just vanished for 2 days.
 
wendy2004 said:
Yup! I think it just got serious for him....not that it hasn't been serious all this time, but I think it's finally sinking in that this demonstration will show him up for being a full blown liar, not only about how much propofol he that he gave all the lorazepam that dripped into MJ's system. The missing tubing will show him up as tampering with evidence especially after Alvarez and Seneff's testimony of how Murray was seen rounding up the bottles. I bet he drained that tubing and had it in his pants pocket the whole time. Initially, I thought the tubing might have been too big or thick/bulky to fit in his pockets but when the evidence was presented and I saw how thin and delicate it really is, first thing I thought was IF he used a drip, tubing that thin could have very well fitted into his pocket.
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He could of easily also flushed the tubing after realizing Michael was gone while doing operation "let's get rid of everything Propofol in sight".
 
just wondered about the 40 mg of lorazapam, isent this kind of bad news for "us" since we were glad the prosecution had just countered the 8-9 pills theory?

with that said, i really like this witness! easy to follow, credibole, good demenor.
 
"Not sure what's going on yet. Sidebar. Murray objected when Shafer was going to talk about Propofol bottle & its handle"

"First time Murray has been very agitated & conferring with his attorneys. He stood up from chair. Recess until about 3:05pm."
 
The Sky News coverage is awful!!! It's stopped now so I'm on ABC,
 
marebear said:
He was suppose to hang the propofol bottle but couldn't so he puts it in the bag? Isn't that seriously wrong?
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thats my opinion. the bottle was in the bag upside down so the dip could drip out and it was pretty much empty when found. why put it in a bag if u can just hang it up? makes no sense unless that plastic handle had come off. if it came off how else do u hang up the bottle upside down? you cant u so u improvise
 
dont wanna go off topic but this is what was tweeted about Murray's behavior
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial



First time Murray has been very agitated & conferring with his attorneys. He stood up from chair. Recess until about 3:05pm.
 
Erikmjfan said:
just wondered about the 40 mg of lorazapam, isent this kind of bad news for "us" since we were glad the prosecution had just countered the 8-9 pills theory?

with that said, i really like this witness! easy to follow, credibole, good demenor.
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That was eight or nine in the stomach, not the blood. The defense has been saying that Michale somehow ate 6 to 8 Lopz pills and the witness clearly said that the amount in Michael's stomach was less than 1 pill. He said it was possible for Michael to take pills around midnight, but it certainly didn't happen around 10am like the defense tried to say.
 
Erikmjfan said:
just wondered about the 40 mg of lorazapam, isent this kind of bad news for "us" since we were glad the prosecution had just countered the 8-9 pills theory?
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No, because it was never about 8 - 9 pills (other than the defense's claim), it was about the amount that was found in the blood and that would be equal to about 8 - 9 pills. Turns out now it was more equal to 20. Makes Murray look a lot worse, giving that much Lorazepam and lying about it to the EMT's, doctors at the UCLA and in his police interview.
 
"So apparently defense objected to DDA Walgren opening a piece of evidence and that led to this long break."
 
the jury saw him looking scared as shyte I'm sure they will draw their own conclusions
 
Milka said:
No, because it was never about 8 - 9 pills (other than the defense's claim), it was about the amount that was found in the blood and that would be equal to about 8 - 9 pills. Turns out now it was more equal to 20. Makes Murray look a lot worse, giving that much Lorazepam and lying about it to the EMT's, doctors at the UCLA and in his police interview.
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did he say this was with IV for sure?

dident the judge say a short break?
 
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