Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

[ivy]

Erin on UStream said that Coroner said, if Murray had only given 25 mg Propofol and then went to bathroom, Michael would have been awake when he came back after 2 minutes. And that Michael couldn't have injected himself, he would have been to groggy from the Propofol and all the other meds he was given.

see this from Trials and Tribulations

- Question about self administration : The IV catheter was in the left leg a little bit above the knee. Rogers mentions it's hard to reach and in order of MJ to inject himself it would require the doctor to stop medication, leave the room, MJ wake up and gain the necessary awareness to press /push propofol.

 

[Sophielo]

Guys before we continue can we keep discussion about Chucky's tweets to another thread. Its not about the hearing. Thanks

 

[Milka]

I think this is another thing that people had already been saying in terms of Michael being too groggy from the meds.

Yes, that's why I posted it, although I really suck at multitasking. Because I don't think this detail from the testimony was mentioned in here.

 

[classic]

.

He was in excellent health sure , try a 4mg of lorazepam intravenously and everyone will say you look OUT OF IT .

My Mother has been ABUSING lorazepam for 30 years, and when she takes MORE , I know immediately.

Imagine someone who was not used to it, who was not abusing it. How much it was affecting his ability.

Ortega described MJ's state as SCARY on April 19Th, everyone began to have suspicious over what Murray was doing INCLUDING MICHAEL and that's why he called Lee on April 21st

It was not a matter of Michael abusing anything. It was a matter of him trying to get some sleep due to severe insomnia and having the wrong doctor helping him.

 

[ivy]

TMZ's story about Murray's medical licence is confirmed

“If Dr. Murray is held to answer on the criminal charges, the next step for the Medical Board would be to file an accusation, which would seek to revoke his license,” Jennifer Simoes, spokesperson for the Medical Board of California, tells FOX411. “An accusation has not been filed yet.”


Read more: http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews....ical-license-really/?test=faces#ixzz1AlNm9EM0

 

[Ingelief]

if i understand the post on trial... good than the man testimony now says because propofol get out of the blood it would be most accured from the hospital blood but even then its 5 til 30 procent lower.. i hope he is going to make a statement he things is given

also he said good things about nonproffesionals using propofal. they need training for helping if the patient stop breathing..
And must be trained in advanced cardiac life support.
And have all the tools

haha now im thinking what is the jury think of that now and murray. hehe

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

yes. the judge said at the beginging of the prelim he will look at the licence issue at the end of the prelim. it will give us an idea of what this judge is like and which way is going depending on what he does. and his wife is a dr if i remember right

I dare everyone who still thinks there's not enough evidence to strip this man off his medical license, to call up their insurance and demand that Murray become their Primary Care Physician.

gawd.

TMZ's story about Murray's medical licence is confirmed

“If Dr. Murray is held to answer on the criminal charges, the next step for the Medical Board would be to file an accusation, which would seek to revoke his license,” Jennifer Simoes, spokesperson for the Medical Board of California, tells FOX411. “An accusation has not been filed yet.”


Read more: http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews....ical-license-really/?test=faces#ixzz1AlNm9EM0

And what are they 'ingesting' over at that board??? Snails au gratin?? They better have that thing ready to go by Friday.

 

[Milka]

It was not a matter of Michael abusing anything. It was a matter of him trying to get some sleep due to severe insomnia and having the wrong doctor helping him.

Murray abused those meds. Including the Propofol. Unfortunately not by giving/taking them himself, but he abused them as a doctor while treating a patient.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

but it started on a thuesday right? so monday would be ten? hope they finish this week

they said 24-30 witnesses we are at 22 now and articles yesterday said it should be done in a few days ie wednesday/thurs

 

[Ohood]

see this from Trials and Tribulations

- Question about self administration : The IV catheter was in the left leg a little bit above the knee. Rogers mentions it's hard to reach and in order of MJ to inject himself it would require the doctor to stop medication, leave the room, MJ wake up and gain the necessary awareness to press /push propofol.

see Ivy , the more we know about the facts now the more we find that we were always right...thanks for supporting those who make sense from the beginning !

MJ is/ was the man, lairs can go to hell !

 

[soulmum]

Murray must be stripped of his license immediately, he is obviously a liability. If someone else dies in his care before this is done it will be another tradgedy for another family. :evil:

 

[GinnyJackson]

Dr. Death will be the girl in prison.

:clapping: hell yes!

he be someones bitch!

 

[bouee]

.

My Mother has been ABUSING lorazepam for 30 years.

Sorry to hear this, that must be difficult for you

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Murray must be stripped of his license immediately, he is obviously a liability. If someone else dies in his care before this is done it will be another tradgedy for another family. :evil:

The thing is that Murray is forbidden to sedate anyone 'heavily'- but did that include poisoning other patients with double and triple dosages of psychiatric drugs??

 

[Ingelief]

.

He was in excellent health sure , try a 4mg of lorazepam intravenously and everyone will say you look OUT OF IT .

My Mother has been ABUSING lorazepam for 30 years, and when she takes MORE , I know immediately.

Imagine someone who was not used to it, who was not abusing it. How much it was affecting his ability.

Ortega described MJ's state as SCARY on April 19Th, everyone began to have suspicious over what Murray was doing INCLUDING MICHAEL and that's why he called Lee on April 21st

thats heavy for you, im sorry to hear it. hope that u can stay strong after that and michael

 

[CherubimII]

Michael Jackson Hearing: Coroner Says Drug Dose Amounted to 'Homicide'

January 11, 2011 | 11:16 am ( L.A. Now--L.A. Times)
<!-- sphereit start -->The medical examiner who ruled Michael Jackson’s death a homicide testified Tuesday he would stand by the classification even if it turned out the pop star gave himself the fatal dose of anesthetic.

Dr. Christopher Rogers made the statement as a lawyer for Jackson’s personal physician questioned him about the possibility the singer administered the anesthetic propofol when Dr. Conrad Murray wasn’t looking.

“Based on the quality of the medical care, I would still call this a homicide even if the doctor did not administer the propofol to Mr. Jackson,” said Rogers, chief of forensic medication at the Los Angeles County Coroner’s office.

He said Murray had endangered Jackson by using the drug in a home setting without proper monitoring, regardless of who gave the final dose. The testimony was a blow to the defense.

Over the course of the six-day hearing to determine whether there is enough evidence to try Murray for involuntary manslaughter, his lawyers have hinted they may argue for acquittal at trial by blaming Jackson for the fatal dose.

<!-- sphereit end -->
Rogers testified the pop star was in “excellent” health for a middle-aged man and died because of “substandard” medical care. The pathologist said Murray violated treatment norms with his use of propofol.

The drug, he said, is not indicated for insomnia and requires constant patient monitoring, which Murray did not provide.
“The information we received indicates that the doctor left Mr. Jackson while he was anesthetized and this is something you would not do,” Roger said.

Despite testimony from a paramedic that the singer was so underweight as to resemble a hospice patient, Rogers said Jackson was “normal weight” at 5 feet 9 and 136 pounds.

-- Harriet Ryan at Los Angeles County Superior Court
<!--MORE FROM LA NOW-->
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...oner-says-drug-dose-amounted-to-homicide.html

 

[ivy]

A coroner in the Michael Jackson death case on Tuesday testified that even if the pop star self-administered the drug that killed him, the physician caring for the singer would have committed homicide.

The testimony of Dr. Christopher Rogers, chief of forensic medicine for the Los Angeles County Coroner, could damage a possible plan by defense attorneys to claim it was the singer who caused his own death, not their client Dr. Conrad Murray.

In questioning on the stand, Rogers said the simple fact that Murray gave Jackson the powerful anesthetic propofol without proper precautions constituted homicide.

On Tuesday, defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan asked Rogers about injections of the drug, that typically is used in hospitals, but which Jackson used at home to sleep.

"If the doctor didn't put the propofol in Mr. Jackson, it's not a homicide is it?" Flanagan asked.

"Based on the quality of the medical care, I would still call this a homicide even if the doctor did not administer the propofol to Mr. Jackson," Rogers said. "The fact that there was propofol there in the first place -- in other words, this is not a usual setting to administer propofol -- and if there was propofol there, it was there to be administered to Mr. Jackson and so the doctor should be prepared for adverse effects."

Flanagan then asked if Dr. Murray should have been prepared for Mr. Jackson self-administering propofol?

"If that's a possibility, yes," Rogers replied.

Rogers also said in his testimony that medical examiners believed, based on the evidence, that Murray was the one who administered the propofol to Jackson.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70A5YG20110111

 

[Milka]

Ok, cause of death again:

Acute Propofol Intoxication. Other conditions contributing to death: Benzodiazepine effect.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

reuters writing a decent article on mj. thats a first

 

[ForeverKOP]

I heard that interview. He said Michael was out of it a lot and he told his sister he didn't think they would get to London. Michael often made them wait for him, Like he wasn't busy... I don't know I just feel he is being ungrateful and wanting his 15 min

Hey, do you have a link for that interview?
People on twitter are pretty mad at him, I wanna know what he said word for word. Was it on TV or something? Is it on Youtube yet? Who did he give the interview to and where? Outside the courtroom?

 

[bouee]

A coroner in the Michael Jackson death case on Tuesday testified that even if the pop star self-administered the drug that killed him, the physician caring for the singer would have committed homicide.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70A5YG20110111

It looks like the "self injection" and "Murray didn't inject the fatal dose" strategies are turning against Murray.... It looks like this part of the coroner's testimony is (almost ) everywhere in the media....

 

[ivy]

It looks like the "self injection" and "Murray didn't inject the fatal dose" strategies are turning against Murray.... It looks like this part of the coroner's testimony is (almost ) everywhere in the media....

coroner did a good job in debunking self injection and digestion defense strategies so yeah it would attract media attention.

 

[classic]

Michael Jackson Hearing: Coroner Says Drug Dose Amounted to 'Homicide'

January 11, 2011 | 11:16 am ( L.A. Now--L.A. Times)
<!-- sphereit start -->. . .
<!-- sphereit end -->
Rogers testified the pop star was in “excellent” health for a middle-aged man and died because of “substandard” medical care. The pathologist said Murray violated treatment norms with his use of propofol.

. . .
-- Harriet Ryan at Los Angeles County Superior Court
<!--MORE FROM LA NOW-->
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...oner-says-drug-dose-amounted-to-homicide.html

That is just so horrendous. With all the crap said about him and his physical condition, it was just not true. The problem was his medical care based on what the expert witness said.

 

[MJStorm]

reuters writing a decent article on mj. thats a first

It's a miracle.

 

[bouee]

coroner did a good job in debunking self injection and digestion defense strategies so yeah it would attract media attention.

A question that has been on my mind for some time :

So, in a legal point of view : the DA doesn't need to prove WHO did the last injection ?

Would that be different with murder 2 ? A comment from Thomas Mesereau (made about a year ago) confused me : he was talking about murder 2, and said the the DA would have to prove murder.

 

[marebear]

I really hope people are really listening to what the coroner is saying. His family, media and public. We listen. But they need to listen. The coroner has no reason to lie.

 

[PCR]

A question that has been on my mind for some time : So, in a legal point of view : the DA doesn't need to prove WHO did the last injection ?

Would that be different with murder 2 ? A comment from Thomas Mesereau (made about a year ago) confused me : he was talking about murder 2, and said the the DA would have to prove murder.

I am still unable to make sense of all this mess. For if this is true (and facts show CM is telling lies!!), it is still needed to find a reason for CM to do all this. If there is no motive, can he be found.. ups... "not guilty"? The more I read about what CM didn't do what he actually did, he more I feel he did really his best to avoid Michael from ever waking up again.

 

[blankyluvdoodoo]

I really hope people are really listening to what the coroner is saying. His family, media and public. We listen. But they need to listen. The coroner has no reason to lie.

agree .so for this day is been good.

 

[Ingelief]

ive got a thing, this day is really good, but why not start with these testimonys? instade of listen to nicole first?

 

[Sophielo]

The coroners testimony has done what the prosecution hoped it would-debunk all the slef adminstering theories. Its simply not realistic that this could have happened and the coroner has proved that. The defence will need a serious strategy rethink.