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Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
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mthalen said:
The charge would be appropriate, but I agre with Ramona: the jury will be the problem, because there can always be the one juror that will say: "yes, Murray was negligent, and yes, had he called 911 Michael might've been saved, but well, MJ asked for the medicines himself, he wanted to take the risk, this is what he got"...

I'm glad they wo'nt take that chance, cause I'd rather see Murray in prison for 4 years, than acquitted for trying him for murder 2 or 1.
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Legally, I wonder if the judge can give jury instructions about not being able to take Michael's actions or perceived actions into account versus only focusing on Murray. If so, then that factor would be out of the equation.

I think that I also remember reading that the judge said that he may review the medical license suspension at the end. I don't see how he wouldn't want to do so.
 
Yeah, not that much interesting news today.
Well, the EMT comments were still kinda shocking, about how MJ looked like he had been dead for 20 minutes :(
 
Media channels most probably will do another update later on. We'll update it all as it comes along.
 
classic said:
Legally, I wonder if the judge can give jury instructions about not being able to take Michael's actions or perceived actions into account versus only focusing on Murray. If so, then that factor would be out of the equation.

I think that I also remember reading that the judge said that he may review the medical license suspension at the end. I don't see how he wouldn't want to do so.
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below is an answer i got from an cali lawyer. didnt mention mj so it was abit hard to ask a direct question but it kinda answers your question

Your question about a victim's character brings up other issues though. In any criminal trial, a witness' credibility is always in issue. Past conduct involving dishonesty, for example, may be admissible to discredit a witness. In a homicide, obviously the victim doesn't testify, so their past wouldn't bear on their credibility, as there's no witness to impeach.
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and yes he said he would review the licence after the prelim
 
elusive moonwalker said:
id presume the other medic and maybe drs from the hospital. that seems to be the pattern. going through the stages been no updates and court is due to end around this time so unless another medic has taken the stand for the last 30 mins or so id guess its over



u dont need intent for murder 2


Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.
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When I mention intent, I was talking about people who think Murray should get murder 1, not murder 2.

Jury point of view effects murder 2 since it is almost the same as manslaughter except by how callous the crime was, or just people bias.

For example, you are on your cell phone and you run someone over. Chances are you will be trialed for manslaughter. Now, if you were drunk and you run someone over you can get charge with murder 2 since it also count as assault with a deadly weapon.

Now, it had been scientifically proven that driven while talking on the phone can hinder your driven ability to the same extent as driven drunk. So really, what is the different between these two crimes that you would get different charges?

The answer is bias. For most people, driven while talking on a cell phone is no big deal, despite all the research people had shown that is can be just as bad as drank. Only a couple states have laws that even says it is illegal to drive on the phone, while every state has laws for driven drunk. The same goes for physically abuse vs. sexual abuse. Both can terrible for the person, but people take sexual abuse much more seriously than physical abuse.

Which is what I meant by my post.
 
01:40... Alarm goes at 07:00, back here tomorrow....
Hope the hearings will be over soon... Need time to catch up on some sleep.
Maybe Murray can help me :( :( :(

Bye, good evening to all.
 
question is it possible to go with murder 2 and if that is not working for the jury to go with IM>?

instade of not taking the change and go now with im
 
classic said:
Also, I can't help but think about that ambulance picture that one of the papparazzi who was there when the ambulance was at the house took. Sorry but you could clearly see that that was Michael, so I can't really wrap my head around the "not able to recognize him" comment.
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Sorry, but as far as I know, it has been confirmed for a long time now that that picture was fake.
 
CNN In Session

Senneff says despite resuscitation efforts and three rounds of giving MJ epinephrine & atropine, paramedics did not feel a pulse on MJ.

Senneff testifies Conrad Murray was the only person who claimed to feel a pulse on MJ.

Senneff testifies to Pros. Walgren that no attempts to revive Jackson were ever successful and a no pulse for MJ was found by paramedics.

On cross, Senneff tells defense attny. Joseph Low that when he entered Jackson's room, he did not see Murray giving MJ CPR.
 
PCR said:
Sorry, but as far as I know, it has been confirmed for a long time now that that picture was fake.
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It was never confirm as fake. Some fans keep insisting it was fake, but no one from the family ever sued claiming such a thing. The person who took the picture even gave an interview.

So, it is all but confirm.
 
RobertNisbet:
@sparklepeople court proceeding smoothly, few interruptions [via Twitter]
Thursday January 6, 2011 12:44 RobertNisbet
12:42

Twitter
RobertNisbet:
@sparklepeople quiet atmosphere, fairly relaxed. Family obviously pained by testimony [via Twitter]
Thursday January 6, 2011 12:42 RobertNisbet
12:41

Twitter
RobertNisbet:
Senneff: didn't feel pulse - although Murray insisted he did. Court adjourned until 0015 tomorrow [via Twitter]
Thursday January 6, 2011 12:41
 
That is ridiculous. He makes me sicker every minute. How can he be so stubborn and indignant about something so ludicrous when he knows everyone else knows it's total bs?
 
ivy said:
MJ Cook to Prince: "Something May be Wrong with Your Dad"

Kai Chase, Michael Jackson's cook, testified after Michael stopped breathing, Dr. Murray came downstairs in a panic and summoned Prince ... and Chase told the boy, "Something may be wrong with your dad."

Chase says it was evident there was an emergency and the housekeepers started crying.

Chase had testified MJ was on an extremely healthy diet, dining on seared ahi tuna salad for lunch the day before he died.

She found it odd that she prepared Tuscan white bean soup for MJ and Murray the night before Jackson died, but when she came to work the next morning the soup was untouched.
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She said something more? Or just this? :scratch:
 
People vs. Dr. Conrad Murray

1/5/2011 10:33 AM PST by TMZ Staff

EMT: Murray Wouldn't Accept That Michael Was Dead

An EMT continued testifying after a recess, stating all of the emergency workers at Michael Jackson's house knew the singer was dead, but Dr. Murray wouldn't "call it.0105_michael_jackson_ambulance_2"

Richard Senneff testified about facts that TMZ has been reporting for more than a year -- that when paramedics arrived at MJ's house, there was no sign of life and no chance of revival. Nevertheless, Senneff testified Dr. Murray claimed to feel a pulse and, as the senior medical person on scene, refused to pronounce MJ dead.

Murray ordered the EMTs to take MJ to the hospital. Senneff said the ride was "unbelievable ... like the Rose Parade. People running down the street, taking pictures, random cars passing the ambulance. It was insane."

Once at UCLA, Senneff said Murray was "spinning ... moving around, nervous, sweating, multitasking."

On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
 
begin rant / I'm officially hating Chernoff / end rant
 
elusive moonwalker said:
below is an answer i got from an cali lawyer. didnt mention mj so it was abit hard to ask a direct question but it kinda answers your question



and yes he said he would review the licence after the prelim
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Thanks, elusive moonwalker.
 
Ingelief said:
@summer

when i was under propofol it wasnt that long so i was not intubated
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It's more about how "deep" rather than "how long". You can have surgery lasting only 10-15 minutes and you need to get intubated because you are under general anesthesia...completely put under. Or you can get sedated for an hour and not need to be intubated, but only get oxygen with a mask on...because you are just sedated. BUT....even when you just get sedation with Propofol...an intubation gear HAS TO BE near by. That is because you CAN stop breathing. It rarely happens (because the anesthesiologists know what they are doing and know what amounts to give), but it CAN happen. Just like your heart rate can change...you can have an allergic reaction....or your blood pressure can drop. Those are all things you HAVE to be PREPARED for. As a patient, you wouldn't know about all those things because it's not like the anesthesiologist will guide you through his equipment. But it is there, believe me it is, and they will react to changes in your pulse or oxygen levels, etc. That's why they are there, and that's why Propofol IS a pretty safe drug...WHEN USED PROPERLY. Just like in surgery...after you take the tube out...We've had patients who still don't breathe on their own....and you gotta do something about it. But the anesthesiologists stay calm, give drugs, make sure you get oxygen and if all else fails, intubate you again until you're safe and ready to breathe on your own. Point is....that's why you have an ANESTHESIOLOGIST there because he KNOWS what he is doing. He won't let you die from lack of oxygen because he knows how to help you. And that's why you are in the recovery room until you wake up and are monitored carefully too after surgery/sedation....so that you are safe and breathing fine.

elusive moonwalker said:
hiya summer. can u explain the below im being really thick here but i dont get what u are saying. prob casue ove been sat infront of this screen for 7 hrs
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What I meant is that...They didn't find Propofol in the LONG tube that was attached to the saline bag (if I understood it correctly). They found Propofol in the short tube that went to the connector. If I understood it correctly the connector they were talking about is one where you can eventually attach either another tube or you can use it to inject whatever you need to inject. At least that's what we do at the ward when someone has a drip and needs to get meds intravenously. Instead of always needing to disconnect the drip, you use the connecter and just either inject the drug into that one, or if you give the drug as a drip or with a pump...you connect it to that place. That way the standard drip can still be left hanging as usual.

So....let's say you inject for example Propofol. The drug will go into the vein...not upwards where the drip is. So that way you would not find Propofol in the long tube of where the saline is...but instead in the short tube between the connector and the i.v...So if MJ got Propofol in a bag as a drip....it could have been hanging there, attached to the connector...with the saline drip also attached...and you'd not find any Propofol in the long tube leading to the saline drip. Because there never was any Propofol IN the saline drip...it was in a separate bag next to it...with it's own tubing. That's what I meant. But I wasn't there, so I can't say for sure. All I am saying is that Alberto's testimony would kind of make it sound like that...and if I remember correctly from the autopsy report...it would also make sense with what they found. Also....if MJ had a saline drip hanging the whole time....it would dilute the amount of Propofol in the tube anyways...Meaning...the amount of Propofol found in the tube would be diluted, not showing that much, as when it would be if you'd just inject it and not have it flushed with saline for minutes.

Hope that helps. Can hardly think straight myself...so tired. :lol:
 
bouee said:
People vs. Dr. Conrad Murray

1/5/2011 10:33 AM PST by TMZ Staff

EMT: Murray Wouldn't Accept That Michael Was Dead

An EMT continued testifying after a recess, stating all of the emergency workers at Michael Jackson's house knew the singer was dead, but Dr. Murray wouldn't "call it.0105_michael_jackson_ambulance_2"

Richard Senneff testified about facts that TMZ has been reporting for more than a year -- that when paramedics arrived at MJ's house, there was no sign of life and no chance of revival. Nevertheless, Senneff testified Dr. Murray claimed to feel a pulse and, as the senior medical person on scene, refused to pronounce MJ dead.

Murray ordered the EMTs to take MJ to the hospital. Senneff said the ride was "unbelievable ... like the Rose Parade. People running down the street, taking pictures, random cars passing the ambulance. It was insane."

Once at UCLA, Senneff said Murray was "spinning ... moving around, nervous, sweating, multitasking."

On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
Click to expand...

well if Michael was a drug addict, then Murray made him one
 
MJStorm said:
In your dreams.
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No, these people have been fans since he was a boy, so don't call someone a none fan just because they may feel Michael played apart in his own death. It is just the way people see it. Michael knew the risks and he took them anyway. Murray did something stupid, but so did Michael. That's the way they see it.

These are the people who taught me to love Michael and supported him during the 2005 trial and never once believed he was a pedo. So, don't be so quick to pass judgment.
 
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bouee said:
On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
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I call BS on the wording here. God, I wish we had the transcripts. This is going to be ugly. I guarantee you all he did was give a "yes" confirming that drug addicts can also sometimes exhibit these symptoms.
 
On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
Click to expand...

That's not true! Erin on utream said that Senneff said how can I even answer that? He didn't know where the DEFENSE was going with that! And the judge cut off right there! He never answered yes to that question!
 
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Ramona122003 said:
It was never confirm as fake. Some fans keep insisting it was fake, but no one from the family ever sued claiming such a thing. The person who took the picture even gave an interview.

So, it is all but confirm.
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I know about his interview and I know he said he felt bad after taking the pic, but then he was also happy that it was him the one who took it.
Great guy! You will not expect that sweet guy to confirm the picture was not real after all the money he received and the media would not want to admit they pay for a fake photo. But as you wish.

This is off topic, so we better finish it here :flowers:
 
Chernoff making him say the black and blue feet is the sign of an addict is outrageous. Considering the guy testified that when they entered the room his blue and black hands/feet were a sign that he was already gone beyond resuscitation.
 
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