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Why do fans run down Michael's family members?

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I don't want to be judging the Jackson family either. They were a big part of Michael and Michael was who he was because of many of the members.
I do have a bit of a problem though. I have a problem with those who say things contradictory to what I've seen Michael say about himself/his youth in interviews.
Examples: Joseph said he never abused Michael, and we know Michael said many times that he was beaten and abused.
The second example is something I'm not sure how true it is. Someone I know watches Good Morning America and she said that they said that Jermaine Jackson said that Michael bleached his skin. Now those of us who watched his interview with Oprah should know that he said he never bleached his skin. Oprah even asked him a second time. Again, he said no.
I don't pretend to know Michael better than his family. I trust Michael not to lie and for a couple of family members to say the opposite of what he has said when he was alive upsets me.
 
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troubleman84 said:
You know what I find odd, fans criticized his family yet some reportedly let the family "know" something was "wrong" with Michael... :huh:

As for the family's actions, well I'm sure they all mean well, but I have to say some of them are so naive in handling things, especially Jermaine. If you believe TMZ's recent report on him, Jermaine is dragging the family down, lol.
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TMZ, troubleman84??
TMZ???

The same site running with that garbage that neither Michael NOR Debbie were the biological parents of Prince & Paris???

You're letting Marvin down. You got the Prince of Soul turning over in his grave.

TMZ stands for Trash Moving Zoomingly.
Harvey Levin is a washed up lawyer who had to hang around People's Court backstage areas to talk to TV plaintiffs & defendants. That wasn't paying the bills so he decided to start up this Hollywood voyeur site.

Hardly what I would call journalism. People can't stay away because of his paparazzi & they want to see all the pics. The tabloids are as always only half of the problem, the other half is the public who support them with viewership & dollars.

Jermaine is fine & I'm glad for what he's doing for his brother. None of us really know what's going on 100%. We're all speculating. Some are valid & some are not.

Remember, lies run sprints but the truth runs marathons.

Man! Mike should made some greeting cards with sayings like these.
John Lucas
 
Michelle MC said:
I don't want to be judging the Jackson family either. They were a big part of Michael and Michael was who he was because of many of the members.
I do have a bit of a problem though. I have a problem with those who say things contradictory to what I've seen Michael say about himself/his youth in interviews.
Examples: Joseph said he never abused Michael, and we know Michael said many times that he was beaten and abused.
The second example is something I'm not sure how true it is. Someone I know watches Good Morning America and she said that they said that Jermaine Jackson said that Michael bleached his skin. Now those of us who watched his interview with Oprah should know that he said he never bleached his skin. Oprah even asked him a second time. Again, he said no.
I don't pretend to know Michael better than his family. I trust Michael not to lie and for a couple of family members to say the opposite of what he has said when he was alive upsets me.
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I interpreted that as 2 people seeing things from different perspectives.
A child's perspective vs. the parent's perspective.

In Joe's eyes, I believe he thinks he was disciplining them. He's talking about a switch & a belt.

We may call getting hit with a switch or a belt "beatings" casually but perhaps Joe thinks the word "beating" should be reserved to a punch to the face or body or being struck with a broad stick or a bat. That's why he brings up the slave example. Torture.

It's semantics. The word "whooping" doesn't sound much better in comparison but that's the word he felt more accurately describes discipline. He's thinking of it as spanking. Not child abuse.

But then there's the rub. Everybody doesn't agree on methods of applying discipline. Some people think spanking itself IS child abuse whether it be with a tree switch, a belt, or even an open-handed swat on the butt.

Michael may believe his spankings WERE abuse because he may not agree with Joe's method of discipline.

Jackie jokingly told Barbara Walters while sitting next to Jermaine a few years ago in some interview that Michael was bad when he was little. Even the 1992 miniseries The Jacksons: An American Dream showed little Michael talking back & sassing his father. Even bold enough to push at him & even punch him. I think even Michael wrote that in Moon Walk, his autobiography.

We see the remnant of that part of his personality when he's on stage. The guy who grabs his crotch & walks with that swagger. I believe he was a rambunctious boy probably like all the brothers & not quite the angelic humble Michael we think of today. I believe the boy had lots of attitude & , like Joe complimented Paris on when she spoke up at the memorial, nerve. He would have to in order to front this band.

The Michael we saw was the result of his mother's influence, his religion, the suffocation of fame, life education, academic study, recognizance of his status & maturity. But at one time Michael wasn't probably always the most well behaved child.

You gotta remember that that was one SMALL LITTLE house full of 8 later 9 highly spirited children. MOSTLY boys at that.

You gotta remember that Gary had those growing inner city blues where youths turned to gangs & crime. You remember the Jackie fight scene featuring Boyz II Men playing the role of the street toughs pouring Jackie Haterade because of what he was doing with the Jackson 5.

You gotta remember that Joe was exhausted from working 2 tough jobs (steel mill & something else) & didn't have the luxury to be comforting when the kids were acting up.

With all those kids inside that little house in that type of neighborhood in those economic circumstances (Jacksons were on welfare at times, Joe picked frozen abandoned potatoes out of fields & went to work in shoes with holes in the soles) Joe & Katherine had to run a tight ship so their kids wouldn't run astray.

This is why Gary neighbors who remember the Jacksons way back when in the 60's say that the Jacksons stayed more to themselves & were always working on those routines. Some remember thinking of them as weird because they put up that force field of protection around themselves.

Both parents sheltered their kids in different ways. Katherine immersed them into Jehovah Witnesses' Kingdom Hall & Joe had them rehearse those routines in the living room & stack cement blocks in the yard & stuff like that. It was to protect them from those streets out there.

Remember Joe was working a lot. Katherine was at home more often than he was (though she occasionally worked too). He was right. Katherine would have to spank their children too. And she said as much. She's one of those ol' school Bible mamas who believes in Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child.

However, I think it was clear that both parents followed traditionally established gender roles with female Katherine providing a motherly emotional supportive role & male Joe providing the fatherly fearful disciplinarian role. You know the "Wait 'til your father gets home!" as a warning or threat when the kids really start acting up.

If the kids didn't mind Mama, they SHO' AS HELL gon' mind Papa. Papa ain't 'bout that bullshit & will set you straight.

What I think happened is maybe he played that role a little too good or went a little gonzo overboard with the spankings out of frustration & desperation. And that's not good but I believe that's the real issue.

This big scary looking man looming over you with a James Evans-like fierceness (see TV's Good Times & watch the episode when he spanks Michael). Joe disciplined but showed no outward love. I really think this is the problem. He was hard-hearted & thought that being tough at all costs was the way to live life. So some of the kids may have thought he was being a monster.

We have in our mind LaToya's reports of him playing Russian Roulette with the kids based on her time with that Mafia-connected sleaze Jack Gordon (I believe everything LaToya accused her dad of doing Jack was doing to her). We heard her say he sexually abused the daughters & all that which Rebbie denied. So many rumors & false reports about his interactions with the kids along with his tough-hearted response to all the reports makes us think the worst about the man.

I cannot say for absolute certain that his discipline crossed a line into actual abuse or not. I wasn't there. But when I hear the other older children say that he was just like how most fathers were back in the day, I have to balance both perspectives & see from both points of view.

It could very well be that he did dangerously more than spank his kids with a belt or switch & the older kids are covering for him to protect the family image. But then again it could be as simple as one kid taking the spanking to heart more than others. Different people have different sensibilities.

Michael talked to Oprah in 1993 before he was a father himself. His speech at Oxford in 2001 revealed a Michael who began to understand his father more. And in the 2005 Geraldo interview you saw Michael comment on similarities with his father & talking about how they were raising children.

From what I see, Joe may still not fully realize the damage he intentionally or unintentionally caused. Or may not recognize the scope of it & how it affected Michael. I think it was obvious that somewhere along the line Joe confused the roles of manager & father. He relates to Michael it seems on a business level. I think that's when he feels he can best relate to Michael since he looks at unease with his emotions. He thinks he's showing his love by making sure Michael has a better deal or a better circle.

That recent Larry King Live interview was a mess but one thing stuck out at me that shows Joe has his own way of looking out for his son. He mentioned how he wanted his son to be paid in Euros rather than Dollars. Euros trade higher than the U.S. Dollar so that was a way Michael could make more money for his efforts.

I don't think Joe believes that his spankings should have had that effect on Michael. He may believe Michael is too sensitive especially coming from the background Joe came out of. Jermaine said it recently on Larry King Live when they were at Neverland how all the kids got their sensitivity & softness from Katherine. Joe is hard, Katherine is soft. Joe is harsh, Katherine is gentle.

It's an impasse of perspectives. Joe believes Michael should be thankful for his father pushing them away from that life of drudgery in Gary, Indiana into gaining wealth from performing. Michael believes Joe pushed too hard & ruined his childhood. On top of that resentment is Joe's teasing of his son (Michael teased others too. Ask who Moonface & Dunk are). Michael may have believed that Joe didn't care about him. Joe never showed affection & wouldn't even let his kids call him Daddy.

Joe's a flawed man but he never stole from his children & pushed them to be their best. And he's proud of his children & their accomplishments. He always wanted his family to stay together. I think Joe is just a product of his generation & did the best he could with what he knew. I believe that if he only showed a little affection, most of the resentment would have never gravitated around him. He never cried in front of the kids or said "I love you" directly.

Funny thing is what Joe was shaped who Michael was as a parent. He learned what not to do & that's why his kids were marvelously raised & cared for. He corrected Joe's mistakes in regards to his own children.

The debate is out on spanking = abuse but I don't doubt that Joe loved his children. He just needed to be more clear in showing it.
John Lucas
 
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johnlucas said:
TMZ, troubleman84??
TMZ???

The same site running with that garbage that neither Michael NOR Debbie were the biological parents of Prince & Paris???

You're letting Marvin down. You got the Prince of Soul turning over in his grave.

TMZ stands for Trash Moving Zoomingly.
Harvey Levin is a washed up lawyer who had to hang around People's Court backstage areas to talk to TV plaintiffs & defendants. That wasn't paying the bills so he decided to start up this Hollywood voyeur site.

Hardly what I would call journalism. People can't stay away because of his paparazzi & they want to see all the pics. The tabloids are as always only half of the problem, the other half is the public who support them with viewership & dollars.

Jermaine is fine & I'm glad for what he's doing for his brother. None of us really know what's going on 100%. We're all speculating. Some are valid & some are not.

Remember, lies run sprints but the truth runs marathons.

Man! Mike should made some greeting cards with sayings like these.
John Lucas
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Did I say I believed TMZ? :huh: Calm down. :stop:
 
johnlucas that probably was the best thing I ever read about Michael's childhood. I must agree.

I also want to say that I think Jermaine has the right more then anyone to keep Michael's good name alive. He comes across very sensitive in his interviews and very careful not to be negative. I like the way he is able to remember all the good times, and think he has been acting wonderfully since Michael died. Smile is wonderful and good for him if he has some success with it. I haven't heard anyone sing with that much emotion in years. Michael was one of a kind, but the talent and personalities of his family added to his legacy in every way.
 
Michelle MC said:
I don't want to be judging the Jackson family either. They were a big part of Michael and Michael was who he was because of many of the members.
I do have a bit of a problem though. I have a problem with those who say things contradictory to what I've seen Michael say about himself/his youth in interviews.
Examples: Joseph said he never abused Michael, and we know Michael said many times that he was beaten and abused.
The second example is something I'm not sure how true it is. Someone I know watches Good Morning America and she said that they said that Jermaine Jackson said that Michael bleached his skin. Now those of us who watched his interview with Oprah should know that he said he never bleached his skin. Oprah even asked him a second time. Again, he said no.
I don't pretend to know Michael better than his family. I trust Michael not to lie and for a couple of family members to say the opposite of what he has said when he was alive upsets me.
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I don't think we'd ever know how it was behind closed doors with them. It's hard enough trying to speculate what was going on between them. Blood was always thicker than water tho.
 
johnlucas said:
Something I've noticed for years & I have to ask the question.

Why do some fans feel so free to run down Michael's family members the way they do?

It's a little sickening how these fans think they know better than Michael's actual family on how to deal with situations. It's almost like these fans want to wall off Michael to themselves as an island from his relatives.

What gets me is the lack of respect. Where's the respect? Michael didn't just come poof out of the sky. His family is a big part of who shaped him into the person he was flaws, virtues, & all. They were there at his trial. All 9 siblings together. Mother & father.

We ARE a "family" to Michael but we come AFTER Michael's blood family. And if we want to REALLY be a "family" to Michael we would show some sort of decorum to his primary support system, his blood family.

We don't have to agree on everything they do but the attacks are really over the line as far as I see it.

I'm tired of seeing fans run down Jermaine & Joe & any other family member they feel in their over-opinionated minds isn't acting the way they think they should act.

Questioning why Jermaine would try to continue doing Michael's work in honor of him? Asking if he's trying to use this to promote himself & never thinking that this maybe his way of trying to get a grip on his grief by continuing in Michael's humanitarian legacy.

This has bothered me for years & I just had to ask the question. Why?
John Lucas
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The more I read about Jermaine on here, the more I agree with you. I mean the only person I'm very hesitant about is Joseph Jackson, but that's because of what Michael has said, and how he has been hurt by Joseph. Even so though, I'm not going to try to judge Joseph. Michael was his son, and he is probably grieving a lot more than I am, so I try to lay off my negative thoughts about him too.
However with the rest of the family too, Michael had to deal with them, and Michael forgave them all for anything that some of them might have done to hurt him. So if Michael forgave then we should, and we should not be judgemental of them.
I am getting sick of reading terrible posts about Jermaine. He gets slammed the most. It's unnecessary and as you said, disrespectful. There's no need to slam a grieving family like this. This is the family of someone we all love, so really is this needed??
 
Hmm, I just read the top of this page and someone quoted a post from me earlier. So I will say I have one problem with some members of the family. When they are interviewed and the person asks them to confirm what Michael has said(about getting beat or whatever) and they say something else other than what Michael says, it sounds like they are making a liar out of Michael. Now that's one thing I will always have a problem with. However, they are a grieving family, loved by Michael, so I don't think they need to be bashed as they are.
 
Michelle MC said:
Hmm, I just read the top of this page and someone quoted a post from me earlier. So I will say I have one problem with some members of the family. When they are interviewed and the person asks them to confirm what Michael has said(about getting beat or whatever) and they say something else other than what Michael says, it sounds like they are making a liar out of Michael. Now that's one thing I will always have a problem with. However, they are a grieving family, loved by Michael, so I don't think they need to be bashed as they are.
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well said,and the way certain members of the family are raking money in from michaels name,since day one of his death.they maybe grieving but i just don,t understand them sometimes,
 
johnlucas said:
Something I've noticed for years & I have to ask the question.

Why do some fans feel so free to run down Michael's family members the way they do?

It's a little sickening how these fans think they know better than Michael's actual family on how to deal with situations. It's almost like these fans want to wall off Michael to themselves as an island from his relatives.

What gets me is the lack of respect. Where's the respect? Michael didn't just come poof out of the sky. His family is a big part of who shaped him into the person he was flaws, virtues, & all. They were there at his trial. All 9 siblings together. Mother & father.

We ARE a "family" to Michael but we come AFTER Michael's blood family. And if we want to REALLY be a "family" to Michael we would show some sort of decorum to his primary support system, his blood family.

We don't have to agree on everything they do but the attacks are really over the line as far as I see it.

I'm tired of seeing fans run down Jermaine & Joe & any other family member they feel in their over-opinionated minds isn't acting the way they think they should act.

Questioning why Jermaine would try to continue doing Michael's work in honor of him? Asking if he's trying to use this to promote himself & never thinking that this maybe his way of trying to get a grip on his grief by continuing in Michael's humanitarian legacy.

This has bothered me for years & I just had to ask the question. Why?
John Lucas
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Bravo John Lucas, BRAVO! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I've also noticed that anyone in Michael's circle of friends or business associates is a target for the HATE too. It's really over the top. It's like if someone DARED to be close to Michael, then they are deserving of HATE from Michael's fans. I sure don't think this is what Michael intended!

But attacking the family...especially NOW, is terribly inappropriate IMHO.
 
A few questions I have my self

So why is his family now showing love?

why no body (but janet) try to defend him when he stated his father did abuse him?

Why is ET and the Insider still getting News on any of the Jacksons when they are the same ones dragging Michael?

Why it took a case for them to reach out for him?

Why (jacksons family): no body knock doors down what ever it took to help MJ in his time of need and I don't want to hear about that BS about he turn his back on his family blah.

Why now family members are speaking out about he was murdered over money?

why no body address any thing that has to do with Michael (positive) when he was alive?

why did it take his death to wake them all up?

They all knew Michael was being control but Joe Jackson tired to save the day?

why none of his family members have tapes recordings of him speaking from his heart? A friend of his was the only one listening and heard his cries?

ETC.....the list of questions goes on. I'm not trying vent out on his family at all I can state my opinions on them thats all. He said him self he wanted to be loved where was the love only his fans had his fate>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
The way I see it I am sure MJ did some terrible things to his family and vice versa. For example, it was reported that the J5 only got a few thousand dollars for the 30th Anniversary show for their appearance while other acts got paid in the millions for their appearance. There are alot of other stories of MJ rejecting his family, so IMO, it goes both ways. Therefore, people need to lay off because no one knows the entire story. It was obvious MJ had a dark side and a good side. Even Lisa Marie and others who came in contact with Michael over the years.
 
Ernestine said:
The way I see it I am sure MJ did some terrible things to his family and vice versa. For example, it was reported that the J5 only got a few thousand dollars for the 30th Anniversary show for their appearance while other acts got paid in the millions for their appearance. There are alot of other stories of MJ rejecting his family, so IMO, it goes both ways. Therefore, people need to lay off because no one knows the entire story. It was obvious MJ had a dark side and a good side. Even Lisa Marie and others who came in contact with Michael over the years.
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But you seem to forget that Michael paid all his family's expenses and debts. He gave them millions, so I don't think that giving them "just few thousands" for a concerts is that bad.

"There are alot of other stories of MJ rejecting his family"- Explain.
"It was obvious MJ had a dark side and a good side."- Explain.
 
Lol007 said:
But you seem to forget that Michael paid all his family's expenses and debts. He gave them millions, so I don't think that giving them "just few thousands" for a concerts is that bad.

"There are alot of other stories of MJ rejecting his family"- Explain.
"It was obvious MJ had a dark side and a good side."- Explain.
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Oh please! If Usher or any other artist are recieving millions of dollars for the special, hell the J5 should be making just as much as them. MJ made millions from the special, and for his own brothers to not get paid accordingly is disrespectful. There is no proof that MJ paid everyone's debt. The Jackson's were not rolling in millions the past couple of years since most of them were filing for bankrupt .In addition, it seem as though Janet was paying MJ bills at Encino not MJ.

There are plenty of stories of MJ pushing his family away during the Victory tour and even the past few years.


Read some of the Friedman articles.
 
Friedman articles? I would like to read them but I don't know where they are.
 
I agree.
it's totally disrespectful to run them down..
They are michaels family, and know him as well.
so we have to respect the choises they make.
 
...because they make it easy to bash them. Always whoring themselves in front of the cameras.

I respect Rebbie & Janet a lot more than the rest. I think we are just now seeing why MJ kept them away, out of his & his kids' life.
 
Ernestine said:
Oh please! If Usher or any other artist are recieving millions of dollars for the special, hell the J5 should be making just as much as them. MJ made millions from the special, and for his own brothers to not get paid accordingly is disrespectful. There is no proof that MJ paid everyone's debt. The Jackson's were not rolling in millions the past couple of years since most of them were filing for bankrupt .In addition, it seem as though Janet was paying MJ bills at Encino not MJ.

There are plenty of stories of MJ pushing his family away during the Victory tour and even the past few years.


Read some of the Friedman articles.
Click to expand...

Read "Jackson Family Values" and Latoya's book (the first half= the one which was written by her in which she talks candidly and positively about some members of her family)
 
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His family treated him like crap, pressured him and were really REALLY bad to Michael. Besides, he always paid them EVERYTHING.

Where's the proof that MJ did those thing sto his family? I don't blame him: if I was Michael I wouldn't even have contact with that "family" who always treated him as a cash-cow and a ticket for fame and glory. Read those books. There are also millions of reports of the Jackson family being REALLY NASTY to Michael. When he wanted to pursue a solo career, it was hell. When he wanted to be a star by himself, it was hell. You will see Michael's family true colours. If he did those things to his fam, more power to him.- I would do even worse, considering the fact that the Jacksons (with the exception of Mike and Jan) are trash.
 
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Don't forget that Michael wanted to do a solo tour instead of performing with his brothers. However, according to many reports and first hand accounts, his family bribed, pressured and some even threatened him. They wanted Michael to do a tour with them, at all costs. They stuck their noses in Michael's tour and forced him to perform with them. Jermaine and Joe were the worst. These two would kill Michael if he didn't do what they wanted. The brothers limited Michael and made him do what they wanted. They used Katherine, who threatened Michael, in order to achieve their goal and got REALLY REALLY upset when Michael refused to continue touring with them. They think their cash-cow owes them his solo career and success and pressured him in a despicable way in order to get him performing with them.

From a fan's point of view:
The Victory tour could have been bigger (it could have been a world tour) and better. Michael was at the peak of his career. It ended up after just 5 months and Michael's moves and choreography were limited by his brother's wishes. Michael could have sold out every arena in the world and Thriller could have sold even more due to the publicity a world tour generates and Michael wasted his time with the brothers: he could have used it to record more solo albums or to tour more often on his own. The bros delayed his career.
 
johnlucas said:
I interpreted that as 2 people seeing things from different perspectives.
A child's perspective vs. the parent's perspective.

In Joe's eyes, I believe he thinks he was disciplining them. He's talking about a switch & a belt.

We may call getting hit with a switch or a belt "beatings" casually but perhaps Joe thinks the word "beating" should be reserved to a punch to the face or body or being struck with a broad stick or a bat. That's why he brings up the slave example. Torture.

It's semantics. The word "whooping" doesn't sound much better in comparison but that's the word he felt more accurately describes discipline. He's thinking of it as spanking. Not child abuse.

But then there's the rub. Everybody doesn't agree on methods of applying discipline. Some people think spanking itself IS child abuse whether it be with a tree switch, a belt, or even an open-handed swat on the butt.

Michael may believe his spankings WERE abuse because he may not agree with Joe's method of discipline.

Jackie jokingly told Barbara Walters while sitting next to Jermaine a few years ago in some interview that Michael was bad when he was little. Even the 1992 miniseries The Jacksons: An American Dream showed little Michael talking back & sassing his father. Even bold enough to push at him & even punch him. I think even Michael wrote that in Moon Walk, his autobiography.

We see the remnant of that part of his personality when he's on stage. The guy who grabs his crotch & walks with that swagger. I believe he was a rambunctious boy probably like all the brothers & not quite the angelic humble Michael we think of today. I believe the boy had lots of attitude & , like Joe complimented Paris on when she spoke up at the memorial, nerve. He would have to in order to front this band.

The Michael we saw was the result of his mother's influence, his religion, the suffocation of fame, life education, academic study, recognizance of his status & maturity. But at one time Michael wasn't probably always the most well behaved child.

You gotta remember that that was one SMALL LITTLE house full of 8 later 9 highly spirited children. MOSTLY boys at that.

You gotta remember that Gary had those growing inner city blues where youths turned to gangs & crime. You remember the Jackie fight scene featuring Boyz II Men playing the role of the street toughs pouring Jackie Haterade because of what he was doing with the Jackson 5.

You gotta remember that Joe was exhausted from working 2 tough jobs (steel mill & something else) & didn't have the luxury to be comforting when the kids were acting up.

With all those kids inside that little house in that type of neighborhood in those economic circumstances (Jacksons were on welfare at times, Joe picked frozen abandoned potatoes out of fields & went to work in shoes with holes in the soles) Joe & Katherine had to run a tight ship so their kids wouldn't run astray.

This is why Gary neighbors who remember the Jacksons way back when in the 60's say that the Jacksons stayed more to themselves & were always working on those routines. Some remember thinking of them as weird because they put up that force field of protection around themselves.

Both parents sheltered their kids in different ways. Katherine immersed them into Jehovah Witnesses' Kingdom Hall & Joe had them rehearse those routines in the living room & stack cement blocks in the yard & stuff like that. It was to protect them from those streets out there.

Remember Joe was working a lot. Katherine was at home more often than he was (though she occasionally worked too). He was right. Katherine would have to spank their children too. And she said as much. She's one of those ol' school Bible mamas who believes in Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child.

However, I think it was clear that both parents followed traditionally established gender roles with female Katherine providing a motherly emotional supportive role & male Joe providing the fatherly fearful disciplinarian role. You know the "Wait 'til your father gets home!" as a warning or threat when the kids really start acting up.

If the kids didn't mind Mama, they SHO' AS HELL gon' mind Papa. Papa ain't 'bout that bullshit & will set you straight.

What I think happened is maybe he played that role a little too good or went a little gonzo overboard with the spankings out of frustration & desperation. And that's not good but I believe that's the real issue.

This big scary looking man looming over you with a James Evans-like fierceness (see TV's Good Times & watch the episode when he spanks Michael). Joe disciplined but showed no outward love. I really think this is the problem. He was hard-hearted & thought that being tough at all costs was the way to live life. So some of the kids may have thought he was being a monster.

We have in our mind LaToya's reports of him playing Russian Roulette with the kids based on her time with that Mafia-connected sleaze Jack Gordon (I believe everything LaToya accused her dad of doing Jack was doing to her). We heard her say he sexually abused the daughters & all that which Rebbie denied. So many rumors & false reports about his interactions with the kids along with his tough-hearted response to all the reports makes us think the worst about the man.

I cannot say for absolute certain that his discipline crossed a line into actual abuse or not. I wasn't there. But when I hear the other older children say that he was just like how most fathers were back in the day, I have to balance both perspectives & see from both points of view.

It could very well be that he did dangerously more than spank his kids with a belt or switch & the older kids are covering for him to protect the family image. But then again it could be as simple as one kid taking the spanking to heart more than others. Different people have different sensibilities.

Michael talked to Oprah in 1993 before he was a father himself. His speech at Oxford in 2001 revealed a Michael who began to understand his father more. And in the 2005 Geraldo interview you saw Michael comment on similarities with his father & talking about how they were raising children.

From what I see, Joe may still not fully realize the damage he intentionally or unintentionally caused. Or may not recognize the scope of it & how it affected Michael. I think it was obvious that somewhere along the line Joe confused the roles of manager & father. He relates to Michael it seems on a business level. I think that's when he feels he can best relate to Michael since he looks at unease with his emotions. He thinks he's showing his love by making sure Michael has a better deal or a better circle.

That recent Larry King Live interview was a mess but one thing stuck out at me that shows Joe has his own way of looking out for his son. He mentioned how he wanted his son to be paid in Euros rather than Dollars. Euros trade higher than the U.S. Dollar so that was a way Michael could make more money for his efforts.

I don't think Joe believes that his spankings should have had that effect on Michael. He may believe Michael is too sensitive especially coming from the background Joe came out of. Jermaine said it recently on Larry King Live when they were at Neverland how all the kids got their sensitivity & softness from Katherine. Joe is hard, Katherine is soft. Joe is harsh, Katherine is gentle.

It's an impasse of perspectives. Joe believes Michael should be thankful for his father pushing them away from that life of drudgery in Gary, Indiana into gaining wealth from performing. Michael believes Joe pushed too hard & ruined his childhood. On top of that resentment is Joe's teasing of his son (Michael teased others too. Ask who Moonface & Dunk are). Michael may have believed that Joe didn't care about him. Joe never showed affection & wouldn't even let his kids call him Daddy.

Joe's a flawed man but he never stole from his children & pushed them to be their best. And he's proud of his children & their accomplishments. He always wanted his family to stay together. I think Joe is just a product of his generation & did the best he could with what he knew. I believe that if he only showed a little affection, most of the resentment would have never gravitated around him. He never cried in front of the kids or said "I love you" directly.

Funny thing is what Joe was shaped who Michael was as a parent. He learned what not to do & that's why his kids were marvelously raised & cared for. He corrected Joe's mistakes in regards to his own children.

The debate is out on spanking = abuse but I don't doubt that Joe loved his children. He just needed to be more clear in showing it.
John Lucas
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Great post. You are always SPOT ON john lucas! I hate it when fans imply Joe doesn't care about his own sons death because they don't see tears streaming down his face in public. That translated interview that we have on here from the German newspaper shows to me how much Joe loved and cared for his son. How dare you judge how someone greaves? I see the pain on his face, I saw it at the funeral.

People were saying 'whats joe doing outside the house where the cameras are..' in FACT he was out there being informed by the police about what was going to happen, he was relaying that information inside to other people, organising things.. but no nobody saw that. He didn't talk to media despite some idiot woman shouting 'Joe!! Come here and talk to us, How do you feel??' How do you think he felt?! He went back inside. People were saying 'poor Mrs Jackson, she shouldn't have to be going through this, she lost a son' how about 'poor Mrs AND Mr Jackson, they BOTH lost a son, they BOTH shouldn't have to be going through this'.

Jermaine.. ok, he seems like he likes attention, but come on..really its great that he is continuing to make sure there are tributes for MJ, and as soon as MJ died and journos were trying to ask him stupid questions he was like what? I'm not answering that question.. 'how about we talk about the humanitarian work my brother did.'

The Jackson family are trying to speak good about MJ to get it out in the public eye. I've just seen a TV ad for GMTV on monday where Latoya will be speaking about the controversy surrounding Michael's life. In the ad she is talking about papers saying things that aren't true about the allegations. In my eyes that is a GOOD thing she is doing.

Lay off them. None of us know what happens behind closed doors. You need to stop listening to hearsay. They were a family and you don't know what they were like when they were together. I don't know how fans can judge them.

They are his family, its up to him to have issues with them, not us. They all were out for a family meal a month or something before his death so if Michael can eat with his family, who are you to judge them.
 
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Next time, Ernestine, I'll talk about what the family did to Michael over some Korean shows. I swear to God that I don't know how Michael tolarated his family's behavior. What they did to him becasuse of some Korean shows is mental abuse.
 
Rockin. said:
Great post. You are always SPOT ON john lucas! I hate it when fans imply Joe doesn't care about his own sons death because they don't see tears streaming down his face in public. That translated interview that we have on here from the German newspaper shows to me how much Joe loved and cared for his son.

Jermaine.. ok, he seems like he likes attention, but come on.. its great that he is continuing to make sure there are tributes for MJ, and as soon as MJ died and journos were trying to ask him stupid questions he was like what? I'm not answering that question.. 'how about we talk about the humanitarian work my brother did.'

The Jackson family are trying to speak good about MJ to get it out in the public eye. I've just seen a TV ad for GMTV on monday where Latoya will be speaking about the controversy surrounding Michael's life. In the ad she is talking about papers saying things that aren't true about the allegations. In my eyes that is a GOOD thing she is doing.

Lay off them. None of us know what happens behind closed doors. You need to stop listening to hearsay. They were a family and you don't know what they were like when they were together. I don't know how fans can judge them.

They are his family, its up to him to have issues with them, not us. They all were out for a family meal a month or something before his death so if Michael can eat with his family, who are you to judge them.
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I'm starting to like Jermaine. =)

He is doing everything he can for his brother!
 
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