Latest on MJJC

BREAKING NEWS - Dr. Conrad Murray Hid Propofol / Michael Jackson doctor interrupted CPR

I can't even bring myself to think about the notion that Michael woke up and knew what was happening. It breaks my heart to even consider that might have happened :cry:
 
I don't know. It would be too stupid, I think.... It just brought more damage to the defense, instead of damage control. But if they indeed leaked it, I am glad Murray has such a defense team, it would make it easier for the prosecution.
Click to expand...
well its gonna come out in the prelim so thats what i ment interms of damage control
 
His eyes were open before the medics arrived so either the evil b**tard Dr murray opened them or in fact MJ opened his eyes and then he stopped breathing.. If you read the report no medics were there when the bodyguard and children were in the room when MJ eyes were open..
 
mjbusterdion2009 said:
His eyes were open before the medics arrived so either the evil b**tard Dr murray opened them or in fact MJ opened his eyes and then he stopped breathing.. If you read the report no medics were there when the bodyguard and children were in the room when MJ eyes were open..
Click to expand...

my betting is he woke up saw what murray was doing and before he could say anything or nudge him away he stopped breathing and that was it :cry:
 
IMO as he was given high dosage of propofol it is very unlikely that he would have woke up - propofol knocks a person out. If he was able to wake up then the dosage should have been low. I think the Dr. opened his eyes to check his pupil reflex.
 
There is so many what could have happened I just hope he didnt feel anything that would be hard to think about..
 
ivy said:
IMO as he was given high dosage of propofol it is very unlikely that he would have woke up - propofol knocks a person out. If he was able to wake up then the dosage should have been low. I think the Dr. opened his eyes to check his pupil reflex.
Click to expand...

thats what im thinking.and if it was bolus it happened within minutes although others say if he checked his eyes they would have shut again after he released them
 
I know for sure I read somewhere that your eyes open after death. And that once they open and livor mortis starts to set in they becoem very difficult to close. And that even once they are closed they will still want to open and so the mortician has to glue them closed. Has anyone else heard of this?
 
And that once they open and livor mortis starts to set in they becoem very difficult to close.
Click to expand...
yeah agree. read that on other boards
 
I suspect MJs eyes were only slightly open most probably from when his pupils were checked after he was already gone. god I hate writing that.

The AP report on the story simply says according to Alvarez's statement Michael's 'eyes (were) open and there was no sign of life'. TMZ typically embellished this to his "eyes were WIDE open" - I've never seen a patient die with their eyes WIDE open but happy to be corrected on that. I don't think he ever woke up, therefore had no awareness of what was happening, after being given the propofol.

Vid of Gupta (CNN medic) showing how swiftly propofol acts in the OR and the monitoring that's needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1GdGMOJw4c
 
ginvid said:
I know for sure I read somewhere that your eyes open after death. And that once they open and livor mortis starts to set in they becoem very difficult to close. And that even once they are closed they will still want to open and so the mortician has to glue them closed. Has anyone else heard of this?
Click to expand...

Well that might happen but it matters how open they were - I know when my grandmother died she died in her sleep but after being moved around and washed and dressed her eyes were slightly open - and nobody touched them at all.
Murray probably checked the pupillary reflex like someone said.
 
Katherine Jackson demands upgraded charge of second degree murder against son's doctor Conrad Murray


LOS ANGELES - Michael Jackson's mom is furious over new allegations that her son's doctor was more worried about hiding the drugs he was giving the King of Pop than saving his life.

Katherine Jackson, 79, is demanding an upgraded charge of second degree murder, her lawyer told the Daily News, after a report claiming Dr. Conrad Murray interrupted CPR to conceal drug evidence from paramedics.

"Mrs. Jackson never doubted that this man murdered her son, and these new revelations, if true, mean we need additional charges to fit the severity of his crimes," attorney Adam Streisand said.

"Second degree murder requires malice aforethought, which can be implied by the conduct of the defendant," he said yesterday. "The actions alleged suggest that Dr. Murray abandoned his duties as a physician or an ordinary human being to save himself rather than his patient."

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2...e_of_second_degree_murder_against_sons_d.html

When Katherine is not only speaking, but demanding, then YES, something really must be done.

It's just like Firpo Carr said, "Instead of dialing 911, he should've dialed M for murder."
 
Jane Velez Mitchell will be covering this story a bit. just to let some know that wouldnt mind watching it.
 
honeysucklejasmine said:
I suspect MJs eyes were only slightly open most probably from when his pupils were checked after he was already gone. god I hate writing that.

The AP report on the story simply says according to Alvarez's statement Michael's 'eyes (were) open and there was no sign of life'. TMZ typically embellished this to his "eyes were WIDE open" - I've never seen a patient die with their eyes WIDE open but happy to be corrected on that. I don't think he ever woke up, therefore had no awareness of what was happening, after being given the propofol.

Vid of Gupta (CNN medic) showing how swiftly propofol acts in the OR and the monitoring that's needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1GdGMOJw4c
Click to expand...

I have had major surgery with Propofol including tubes down my throat, "breathing" being ventilated mechanically- if he truly died from acute Propofol intoxication with Benzodiazepine effect acting as added "bonus"- there is NO WAY he woke inbetween.
Respiratory Depression would set in after your unconscious- and according to the Coroner's Report Propofol levels were SO high that the Propofol was literally seeping from his eyes. There is no way that he was conscious with these levels. It wouldn't even be logical for him to be conscious trying to breath.

That stuff knocks you out FAST, I remember being knocked out with it.
 
poor Katherine. I agree, I think it's murder two.

yet, T-Mez still thinks they won't upgrade the charges...
 
Modulation Alert said:
I have had major surgery with Propofol including tubes down my throat, "breathing" being ventilated mechanically- if he truly died from Propofol intoxicating with Benzodiazepine effect acting as added "bonus"- there is NO WAY he woke inbetween.
Respiratory Depression would set in after your unconscious- and according to the Coroner's Report Propofol levels were SO high that the Propofol was literally seeping from his eyes. There is no way that he was conscious with these levels. It wouldn't even be logical for him to be conscious trying to breath.

That stuff knocks you out FAST, I remember being knocked out with it.
Click to expand...

I remember it too. There's no way, so please don't all be torturing yourself with that thought. :cry:
 
StaceyMJ said:
I remember it too. There's no way, so please don't all be torturing yourself with that thought. :cry:
Click to expand...

Yes, please, I remember a FEW seconds after the drip was started and you are OUT. You are not conscious. We don't know what happened before all the Propofol that day- but I really don't think we need to torture ourselves with the thought of him consciously gasping for air, I truly think he was unconscious. He would have felt burning in the leg where the IV was going in but aside from that I do not think there was pain involved. That's why it is used in major surgery!

I remember that the Propofol drip was started and I remember starting a sentences that it really burns. I didn't finish the sentence. After that I was out and obviously then hooked up to a ventilator. I DO recall waking and the nurses getting VERY busy because they will start removing the breathing tubes once you start waking up. I recall that. Tubes were removed and I sort of remember even that and it was not too bad. If he was out, he was out.

I think TMZ wanted to add that detail for a bit of gruesomeness factor. I bet somebody checked his pupils for reaction as well several times.
 
JMie said:
poor Katherine. I agree, I think it's murder two.

yet, T-Mez still thinks they won't upgrade the charges...
Click to expand...

I don't care what mez is saying right now. I respect him and thank for defending Michael in the past for those lies.

But now, it's a whole other thing.

All Michael's fans, his family, and even his mother believe the charges should be murder. And now Katherine is DEMANDING. Michael's mother always knew what was best for him, including his justice.
 
kasume said:
I don't care what mez is saying right now. I respect him and thank for defending Michael in the past for those lies.

But now, it's a whole other thing.

All Michael's fans, his family, and even his mother believe the charges should be murder. And now Katherine is DEMANDING. Michael's mother always knew what was best for him, including his justice.
Click to expand...

Realistically I cannot see any more charges being filed but they sure as hell should be.
 
As sad as it is, I agree. remember these are new testaments to us only. The police have known about them for months and took them into account when coming up with the initial charge.
 
sloride said:
Realistically I cannot see any more charges being filed but they sure as hell should be.
Click to expand...

Well, if they SHOULD be, they really could.

It's Murray's job anyways to take the fall. Let him take it!!

They are thinking of charging a 15 year old boy for MURDER when he beats a girl unconsious.

With Michael, we get a threat of death and destruction, a trained doctor who doesn't know what medications it takes to KILL a person, and DRUGS a man to DEATH.

What doctor drugs a man to death????

Like Katherine, I DEMAND murder charges. Second degree the least.
 
Last edited:
He didn't sleep with his eyes open. but it could be that Murray opened his eyes to see if his pupils were dilated. If so, after a person dies maybe once the eyes are opened they are difficult to close again so they remained open while Murray and EmTs worked on him. It is really hard to now conclusively at this point why the eyes were open. But I think we have come to the conclusion that propofol works so fast and is so powerful it is unlikely Mj ever woke back up after being given the dose of propofol. So he was not awake when he died.
 
kasume said:
Katherine Jackson demands upgraded charge of second degree murder against son's doctor Conrad Murray


LOS ANGELES - Michael Jackson's mom is furious over new allegations that her son's doctor was more worried about hiding the drugs he was giving the King of Pop than saving his life.

Katherine Jackson, 79, is demanding an upgraded charge of second degree murder, her lawyer told the Daily News, after a report claiming Dr. Conrad Murray interrupted CPR to conceal drug evidence from paramedics.

"Mrs. Jackson never doubted that this man murdered her son, and these new revelations, if true, mean we need additional charges to fit the severity of his crimes," attorney Adam Streisand said.

"Second degree murder requires malice aforethought, which can be implied by the conduct of the defendant," he said yesterday. "The actions alleged suggest that Dr. Murray abandoned his duties as a physician or an ordinary human being to save himself rather than his patient."

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2...e_of_second_degree_murder_against_sons_d.html

When Katherine is not only speaking, but demanding, then YES, something really must be done.

It's just like Firpo Carr said, "Instead of dialing 911, he should've dialed M for murder."
Click to expand...
I should note this was posted in the gossip section if the new york daily news but I do believe the family wants the charged increased because they've made it known. Also I'm sure this is information the family has been aware of.
 
Last edited:
Even T-Mez highly doubts that there will be any extra charges. Murray killed a man and tried to cover it up, yet the charge is still IM? And the family are finding out the exact same way we are-through the media about what exactly happened that night.
 
Asedora said:
As far as I know it is opposite. It is hard to open eyes if the person is dead already. But when the person dies with open eyes, it is very easy to close them. Usually when doctors or investigators look at corps with close eyes, they open them; then look with the light inside and at this point this procedure usually needs an effort to hold an eye open. Once someone removes hand, the eye of a dead person closes itself. This is the nature of death. If the eyes were WIDE open it means that he died with open eyes imo which does not make sense if he was under Propofol. The question is was Propofol given to him without knowing it and the shot woke him up?
IV was attached to his leg which is strange too.
Click to expand...

I don't know hun. I just googled "do eyes open when a person dies" and found that information out. They said after death the eyes have a tendency to open some and that is why they are often glued shut by morticians. I know when I see it on TV, when a person dies with their eyes open they close them no problem. But apparently this is false (go figure) tv magic and closing them is not easy to do.

Once the heart stops beating, blood collects in the most dependent parts of the body (livor mortis), the body stiffens (rigor mortis), and the body begins to cool (algor mortis).

The blood begins to settle in the parts of the body that are the closest to the ground, usually the buttocks and back when a corpse is supine. The skin, normally pink-colored because of the oxygen-laden blood in the capillaries, becomes pale as the blood drains into the larger veins. Within minutes to hours after death, the skin is discolored by livor mortis, or what embalmers call "postmortem stain," the purple-red discoloration from blood accumulating in the lowermost (dependent) blood vessels. Immediately after death, the blood is "unfixed" and will move to other body parts if the body's position is changed. After a few hours, the pooled blood becomes "fixed" and will not move. Pressing on an area of discoloration can determine this; if it blanches (turns white) easily, then the blood remains unfixed. Livor mortis is usually most pronounced eight to twelve hours after death. The skin, no longer under muscular control, succumbs to gravity, forming new shapes and accentuating prominent bones still further. The body then begins to cool.

At the moment of death, the muscles relax completely—a condition called "primary flaccidity." The muscles then stiffen, perhaps due to coagulation of muscle proteins or a shift in the muscle's energy containers (ATP-ADP), into a condition known as rigor mortis. All of the body's muscles are affected. Rigor mortis begins within two to six hours of death, starting with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. This sequence may be due to the difference in lactic acid levels among different muscles, which corresponds to the difference in glycogen levels and to the different types of muscle fibers. Over the next four to six hours, rigor mortis spreads to the other muscles, including those in the internal organs such as the heart. The onset of rigor mortis is more rapid if the environment is cold and if the decedent had performed hard physical work just before death. Its onset also varies with the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build...

It was ritually important to close the eyes quickly, being that they are the first to rigidify in rigor mortis, and it was thought that a corpse with open eyes posed a threat to its kin. As has long been the case in many cultures, they used coins to keep the corpse's eyes closed


TABLE 1

Approximate times for algor and rigor mortis in temperate regions

Body temperature Body stiffness Time since death
warm not stiff dead not more than three hours
warm stiff dead 3 to 8 hours
cold stiff dead 8 to 36 hours
cold not stiff dead more than 36 hours


SOURCE: Stærkeby, M. "What Happens after Death?" In the University of Oslo Forensic Entomology [web site]. Available from http://folk.uio.no/mostarke/forens_ent/afterdeath.shtml.



So if the eyes are first to get rigor mortis then if Murray opened MJ's eyes to check for pupil dilation like at the onset of rigor mortis, then the eyes would remain fixed in an open position. And something was not put there to keep the eyes closed, then they would remain open. I'm thinking it's something like that. I am trying to find more info on this that is more specific to the eyes after death. If I find it I will post it.
 
Asedora said:
As far as I know it is opposite. It is hard to open eyes if the person is dead already. But when the person dies with open eyes, it is very easy to close them. Usually when doctors or investigators look at corps with close eyes, they open them; then look with the light inside and at this point this procedure usually needs an effort to hold an eye open. Once someone removes hand, the eye of a dead person closes itself. This is the nature of death. If the eyes were WIDE open it means that he died with open eyes imo which does not make sense if he was under Propofol. The question is was Propofol given to him without knowing it and the shot woke him up?
IV was attached to his leg which is strange too.
Click to expand...


That may just be the media sensationalizing things again, Murray probably checked his pupils and his eye's remained slightly open. But once one media outlet prints something, the others usually print the same thing, so I wouldn't think too much into that aspect of things.
 
AnnieRUOkay89 said:
That may just be the media sensationalizing things again, Murray probably checked his pupils and his eye's remained slightly open. But once one media outlet prints something, the others usually print the same thing, so I wouldn't think too much into that aspect of things.
Click to expand...

I think this is the case.
I don't believe M's eyes were "wide" open,they prob printed that for shock value,like we need even more..

If the person just died,it's easy to open/close mouth and eyes even if it depends on the case.It's more usual that eyes and mouth tend to open rather closing that's why they have to partially glue them for open casket funerals for example.

edit:
ginvid said:
They said after death the eyes have a tendency to open some and that is why they are often glued shut by morticians.
Click to expand...
Sorry just read this,that's the explanation I got as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top