Latest on MJJC

Murray Trial - 12 October - Day 11 - Discussion

Why is Flan still going? Haven't you done enough damaged to your clinic? You've already called him lair and incompetence about his timeline.
 
what is the purpose of baldy? Ain't heard from him. It never crossed murray mind to have a back-up battery for electricity, it does happen here all the time especialyl when it rains hard.
 
Is there something wrong with the video feed??? it keeps freezing for me at all the wrong moments...waaah even on the red carpet is jerky and there's no audio and I just turned it on and I'm soooo frustrated
 
Apparently Flannagan has won a case on propofol adminstration in 2003 according to sky news expert....you wouldn't think so on his cross-examination so far.

saying failure to document was probably not a cause of his death as he was already dead....but it's still a deviance from standard of care.
 
guys thanks for the updates... Glad to see that things are going well
 
flan, what a lucky guy. getting 90 minutes for new questions. hehe
see you in "Round 2". *bang*
 
Stellar day for the Prosecution, this far. Twitter is exploding with love for Dr. Steinberg!!! He's on the stand saying everything I think all of us have been saying and debating on this board for 2 years... and have wanted the world to hear and know. It's like, FINALLY!!!
 
Dr Steinberg
Cross by Fanagan

are you trained in propfol : no , but did use it, in a practice for critical care in NY. Did not use it since he's been in Calif because it is not allowed in Cali. Felt confident in using it because he was trained in protecting airways.

Is there a difference in the equipment for moderate or deep sedation : no

Do you think CM's declaration was thorough and complete : i assumed it was.

Can the informed consent be oral : yes, but you need to do it in writing also. If it's not written it's not done. For everything that we do, there is a written document. It's important, because if MJ had been correctly informed , he certainly would not have agreed to this.
Can not know if MJ had been informed, but assumes he was not informed that a powerful dangerous drug would be used on him without proper monitoring. Assumes he would not have agreed to it.

Do you know anything about MJ's propensity towards drugs, mentions demerol and Klein. What if MJ was an addict , he would have agreed to it ? Answer : if he was an addict, I wouldn't give it to him in the first place.

Other doctors use prpofol : dentists, gastroentorologist, pulmonary doctors, ER doctors. But their societies advise on how to use it.

Concious sedation : there is no difference in equipment needed, same aquipment as in deep sedation.

Have you used it for conscious sedation : no, the propofol is too powerful, narrow margin between sedation and anesthesia.

What killed MJ ? : a respiratory depression. He still had a pulse.

How do you know the EMTs arrived 20mn after the arrest? How do you know it was around noon ? Heard it in the testimony. Can not be positive about 12 noon, but knows that there was a delay in calling 911, at least 12 mn based on on the 12 12 call to MAW.

What 2MG of lorazepam would do to a patient : I'm not expert on lorazepam; uses it for mild sedation; Gives it an hour before the procedure orally.
Further questions about lorazepam : objections, sustained, outside his area of expertise.

MJ and CM had been discussing propofol for the past 3 nights, and at 10 that morning. CM told MJ it was not good for him. Steinberg states that CM said he was trying to wean MJ off.


Steinberg states that CM said that he gave 25mg INITIALLY. Steinberg understood that after that initial 25mg dose, there was a drip, based on his police interview. Cites a lot of examples in CM interview, and says it makes sense, because 25mg would not keep MJ asleep.
Flanagan insists there was no drip on the 25th, Steinberg insists there was a drip, they both give examples in CM's LAPD interview. They agree it's not clear, but Steinberg says it makes no sense , it's logical CM gave a drip : MJ logically would have woken up, and there as no reason that CM changed his methods.
25 mg is a very small dose, it's mild sedation : yes it's a small , doesn't know if it's mild sedation.

25mg would make him sleep 4 to 7 mn. Steinberg agrees. So if he was still asleep he was sleeping for other reasons. Steinberg says that he would have worried that MJ was still asleep (if MJ was not on a drip) . Protocol says that after propofol, you should watch that the patient is fully awake. Just looking at MJ doesn't tell if he's asleep or in deep sedation. Would a a pulse oxymeter tell you ? No.
Dr Murray should have woken MJ up. The fact that MJ was still asleep after 10 mn, if there was no drip, is very alarming.

Flanagan : propofol was successfully used on refractery chronic primary insomnia in Taiwan Steinberg : yes, this article dates back to 2010, in 2009 there was no medical knowedge. CM was unthetical Article mentions propofol given for 2 hrs per night 5 night a week, not 8 hours per night for 2 months. The article says that this test was successul, but it's still not used as a sleep medication because it's still experiental, there is not enough data about this. CM is the first doctor he's heard of who used propofol for insomnia.

Is propofol used for other things than surgery ? Yes, in the icu on intubated patients. Steinberg has never heard of it given for moderate sedation because there's a narrow marrow margin beteen moderate an deep sedation. Steinberg says he's not an expert on propofol.

How do you know he didn't use the ambu bag : because he said he did mouth to mouth.

How do you know he did not se the blood pressure cuff : becaue it was not on MJ.

Was the pulse oximeter on MJ ? No

How do you know CM left MJ ? Do you know how long CM continued to watch MJ ? No.

Do you know what happened between 11 and 12 ? No.

Did he say what time it was when CM went to the bathroom ? No

Do you have an idea of the actual time death : was DOA at UCLA.

Steinberg says he based his report on CM's interview.
Was MJ savable when CM found him : yes. CM left for only 2mn. His oxygen was in the 90s, it takes some time before the oxygen lowers. Yes MJ was savable.

You don't think it was 2mn ? I'm assuming it was 2mn, because CM said it was 2mn.

Let's assume CM was gone longer than that : It's assuming too much.

Have you heard of the telephone calls : yes but i don't want to comment on the phone calls. Phone calls tell me that MJ was on a drip, why would you be on the phone and wake Mr Jackson up ?

Let's assume CM was gone more than 2mn, maybe 5, 10, 20 mn, was MJ savable ? Yes, because when CM came back MJ had pulse, according to CM. If CM had reacted properly with the proper equipment, MJ would have been saved.

Was MJ in PEA when CM came back ? No, he had a pulse.

How do you know MJ had a pulse ? Because CM said so.

What should CM have done ? Call 911 immediately.

How long does it take to call 911 ? 2 seconds

Are you aware of te time it took in this case to call 911 ? No, as a doctor in this case CM was allowed 2 minutes before calling 911.

CM went down at 1205 to call for help , was it a violation of standard of care ? Yes. He didn't have the right equipment, should have called 911 imediately.

The judge is pissed off, sidebar.


Flanagan talks about Kai Chase : CM went downstairs and asked for help. Objection from Walgren : CM didn't ask Kai Chase to call 911. Sustained.

Are you aware of the Medical quality assurance board ? No.

Did you talk to CM to review this case ? No.

Did you ask to : No.

What should he have done in these 2mn : call 911, protect the airway, make him breathe (intubation, ambu bag), give flumazenil.

Did he make a mistake in asking someone to call 911 ? he didn't ask anyone to call. The time it takes to call for security was the time it would have taken to call 911. He had a cell phone, could have put 911 on loudspeaker.

Are you aware that the EMTs said MJ was cool to the touch ? Yes, but CM said he was warm. The firemen got there 26 mns later. You get cold in 26 mn when you have no bood pressure.

You have no doubt that if 911 had been called immediately MJ would still be alive ? No, I have no doubt about that, they could have saved him. CM said that he lost the pulse after calling MAW at 1212. So if the paramedics had been there at 1205 or 1210, they could have saved him. There is clear evidence that there was a delay in calling 911 : CM went dowstairs and called MAW.

Based upon these facts do you think he's responsible of MJ's death ? Yes.

He should have anticipated a power shortage (back up battery) : yes.

He should have dropped MJ on the floor, in spite of the IV line ? He should stop the propofol drip first. And yes, he should be careful with the line.

You indicated there should be suction ? Wouldn't clearing his mouth with a finger be enough ? No, you need suction.

Have you ever seen propofol given without a defebrilator ? No

If you only have 1 patient do you need to document everything you do ? Obvioulsy he didn't recall what he had given when he talked to UCLA or with the paramedics. But that didn't cause MJ's death.


Lunch break .

I hope dr Steinberg has lunch with the defense. Anyone at the defense table might need a cardiologist soon. This testimony was probably the most devastating so far for CM. Dr Steinberg was great, simple, easy to understand.
He based his answers on CM's interview, which I thought was great. The defense has no way out.
 
This witness is AWESOME. He has Flannagan tongue tied and choked up. Flannagan's so confused that he admits Murray was out of the room over two minutes. Its never a good idea for a lawyer to admit that his client lied to the police. The testimony about the drip being used that night was classic. I guess the new strategy will be that the invisible man came in and gave a bolus injection and the missing security tape will prove it.
 
On my afternoon break at work to read the updates. You guys are making me laugh with your comments about Flan, etc. I guess this cross is going nowhere fast due to this most excellent of witnesses for the prosecution. Oh God I wish I could watch the entire trial, it's killing me that I can't ugh!
 
The Flanagan vs Dr Steinberg match was epic!

But... Message for Flannie...

129073301514313053.jpg
 
It's amazing how inept the defence lawyers are, none of these witnesses are unexpected, they would have had their reports for some time but they're acting like as if its the first time they've heard and are revising their defence every time the witness debunks their previous claims.

I'm not complaining but they are awful in their defence of their client....but I guess it's more that they can't defend their clients action....he made so many mistakes on so many levels especially for a cardiologists.
 
My goodness, is Steinberg on the button or what! Loved it when Flanagan ask's............Do you know any doctor who has given propofol for insomnia, Steinburg says 'No', then says I should have said 'Yes' Dr Murray' with a big smile lol.
Flanagan was desperately trying to change Murrays interview, "my words" Excuse me sir........can I exchange the 2 minute bathroom lie for another lie that might look better for my client.
 
rita.gibson said:
My goodness, is Steinberg on the button or what! Loved it when Flanagan ask's............Do you know any doctor who has given propofol for insomnia, Steinburg says 'No', then says I should have said 'Yes' Dr Murray' with a big smile lol.
.
Click to expand...

Yes I loved that bit too, along with many others, too many to list. I bet the Prosecution are over the moon with Steinberg.
 
Flannagan's big evidence was the study where propofol was used to treat severe insomnia. I think it was Dr. Steinberg who pointed out that it was done in China after MJ died and only for two weeks, lol.
 
Elusive, you're going to have to watch this on youtube because none of us here could document Dr Steinbergs face it's what stars are made from, it's Classic.
 
Did anyone see the look on the judge's face at one point where Flan asked a stupid question? Priceless.
 
Dr Steinberg was a hero on that stand, unflappable and very professional. Yes ELUSIVE - it's a definite must watch if you can see it on youtube.
 
Dang, I think Flan did the DA's job for them. Really, he called Murray a liar just to say that Michael was dead and beyond help. Really, even he was supposedly beyond help, you still call 911 to give the person even a small chance.

I also loved the look on Steinbergs' face when Flan told him about the phone calls. His expression was the best 'WTF' face I've ever seen. If he wasn't in court, I bet he would had yelled, 'why the hell was he on a cell phone with a sedated patient!?'

On the actually testimony it is interesting to note that Steinbergs said that Murray was foolish not to wake Michael after the drug left his system. According to him, that meant something was really wrong right there and Michael was in distress if we use Murray's words. I thought the bit was a nice touch since the defense has been trying to cling to the idea that Michael was sleeping naturally and there was no need for Murray to be there watching him.
 
bouee said:
Dr Steinberg
Cross by Fanagan

are you trained in propfol : no , but did use it, in a practice for critical care in NY. Did not use it since he's been in Calif because it is not allowed in Cali. Felt confident in using it because he was trained in protecting airways.

Is there a difference in the equipment for moderate or deep sedation : no

Do you think CM's declaration was thorough and complete : i assumed it was.

Can the informed consent be oral : yes, but you need to do it in writing also. If it's not written it's not done. For everything that we do, there is a written document. It's important, because if MJ had been correctly informed , he certainly would not have agreed to this.
Can not know if MJ had been informed, but assumes he was not informed that a powerful dangerous drug would be used on him without proper monitoring. Assumes he would not have agreed to it.

Do you know anything about MJ's propensity towards drugs, mentions demerol and Klein. What if MJ was an addict , he would have agreed to it ? Answer : if he was an addict, I wouldn't give it to him in the first place.

Other doctors use prpofol : dentists, gastroentorologist, pulmonary doctors, ER doctors. But their societies advise on how to use it.

Concious sedation : there is no difference in equipment needed, same aquipment as in deep sedation.

Have you used it for conscious sedation : no, the propofol is too powerful, narrow margin between sedation and anesthesia.

What killed MJ ? : a respiratory depression. He still had a pulse.

How do you know the EMTs arrived 20mn after the arrest? How do you know it was around noon ? Heard it in the testimony. Can not be positive about 12 noon, but knows that there was a delay in calling 911, at least 12 mn based on on the 12 12 call to MAW.

What 2MG of lorazepam would do to a patient : I'm not expert on lorazepam; uses it for mild sedation; Gives it an hour before the procedure orally.
Further questions about lorazepam : objections, sustained, outside his area of expertise.

MJ and CM had been discussing propofol for the past 3 nights, and at 10 that morning. CM told MJ it was not good for him. Steinberg states that CM said he was trying to wean MJ off.


Steinberg states that CM said that he gave 25mg INITIALLY. Steinberg understood that after that initial 25mg dose, there was a drip, based on his police interview. Cites a lot of examples in CM interview, and says it makes sense, because 25mg would not keep MJ asleep.
Flanagan insists there was no drip on the 25th, Steinberg insists there was a drip, they both give examples in CM's LAPD interview. They agree it's not clear, but Steinberg says it makes no sense , it's logical CM gave a drip : MJ logically would have woken up, and there as no reason that CM changed his methods.
25 mg is a very small dose, it's mild sedation : yes it's a small , doesn't know if it's mild sedation.

25mg would make him sleep 4 to 7 mn. Steinberg agrees. So if he was still asleep he was sleeping for other reasons. Steinberg says that he would have worried that MJ was still asleep (if MJ was not on a drip) . Protocol says that after propofol, you should watch that the patient is fully awake. Just looking at MJ doesn't tell if he's asleep or in deep sedation. Would a a pulse oxymeter tell you ? No.
Dr Murray should have woken MJ up. The fact that MJ was still asleep after 10 mn, if there was no drip, is very alarming.

Flanagan : propofol was successfully used on refractery chronic primary insomnia in Taiwan Steinberg : yes, this article dates back to 2010, in 2009 there was no medical knowedge. CM was unthetical Article mentions propofol given for 2 hrs per night 5 night a week, not 8 hours per night for 2 months. The article says that this test was successul, but it's still not used as a sleep medication because it's still experiental, there is not enough data about this. CM is the first doctor he's heard of who used propofol for insomnia.

Is propofol used for other things than surgery ? Yes, in the icu on intubated patients. Steinberg has never heard of it given for moderate sedation because there's a narrow marrow margin beteen moderate an deep sedation. Steinberg says he's not an expert on propofol.

How do you know he didn't use the ambu bag : because he said he did mouth to mouth.

How do you know he did not se the blood pressure cuff : becaue it was not on MJ.

Was the pulse oximeter on MJ ? No

How do you know CM left MJ ? Do you know how long CM continued to watch MJ ? No.

Do you know what happened between 11 and 12 ? No.

Did he say what time it was when CM went to the bathroom ? No

Do you have an idea of the actual time death : was DOA at UCLA.

Steinberg says he based his report on CM's interview.
Was MJ savable when CM found him : yes. CM left for only 2mn. His oxygen was in the 90s, it takes some time before the oxygen lowers. Yes MJ was savable.

You don't think it was 2mn ? I'm assuming it was 2mn, because CM said it was 2mn.

Let's assume CM was gone longer than that : It's assuming too much.

Have you heard of the telephone calls : yes but i don't want to comment on the phone calls. Phone calls tell me that MJ was on a drip, why would you be on the phone and wake Mr Jackson up ?

Let's assume CM was gone more than 2mn, maybe 5, 10, 20 mn, was MJ savable ? Yes, because when CM came back MJ had pulse, according to CM. If CM had reacted properly with the proper equipment, MJ would have been saved.

Was MJ in PEA when CM came back ? No, he had a pulse.

How do you know MJ had a pulse ? Because CM said so.

What should CM have done ? Call 911 immediately.

How long does it take to call 911 ? 2 seconds

Are you aware of te time it took in this case to call 911 ? No, as a doctor in this case CM was allowed 2 minutes before calling 911.

CM went down at 1205 to call for help , was it a violation of standard of care ? Yes. He didn't have the right equipment, should have called 911 imediately.

The judge is pissed off, sidebar.


Flanagan talks about Kai Chase : CM went downstairs and asked for help. Objection from Walgren : CM didn't ask Kai Chase to call 911. Sustained.

Are you aware of the Medical quality assurance board ? No.

Did you talk to CM to review this case ? No.

Did you ask to : No.

What should he have done in these 2mn : call 911, protect the airway, make him breathe (intubation, ambu bag), give flumazenil.

Did he make a mistake in asking someone to call 911 ? he didn't ask anyone to call. The time it takes to call for security was the time it would have taken to call 911. He had a cell phone, could have put 911 on loudspeaker.

Are you aware that the EMTs said MJ was cool to the touch ? Yes, but CM said he was warm. The firemen got there 26 mns later. You get cold in 26 mn when you have no bood pressure.

You have no doubt that if 911 had been called immediately MJ would still be alive ? No, I have no doubt about that, they could have saved him. CM said that he lost the pulse after calling MAW at 1212. So if the paramedics had been there at 1205 or 1210, they could have saved him. There is clear evidence that there was a delay in calling 911 : CM went dowstairs and called MAW.

Based upon these facts do you think he's responsible of MJ's death ? Yes.

He should have anticipated a power shortage (back up battery) : yes.

He should have dropped MJ on the floor, in spite of the IV line ? He should stop the propofol drip first. And yes, he should be careful with the line.

You indicated there should be suction ? Wouldn't clearing his mouth with a finger be enough ? No, you need suction.

Have you ever seen propofol given without a defebrilator ? No

If you only have 1 patient do you need to document everything you do ? Obvioulsy he didn't recall what he had given when he talked to UCLA or with the paramedics. But that didn't cause MJ's death.


Lunch break .

I hope dr Steinberg has lunch with the defense. Anyone at the defense table might need a cardiologist soon. This testimony was probably the most devastating so far for CM. Dr Steinberg was great, simple, easy to understand.
He based his answers on CM's interview, which I thought was great. The defense has no way out.
Click to expand...

bouee you're my hero! now all I need is a youtube upload of the cross for Steinberg!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top