Latest on MJJC

Murray Trial - 12 October - Day 11 - Discussion

No, that's all for today. There's also a schedule problem on Friday, the judge is cracking jokes at the jury while excusing himself of not notifying them earlier.

Great day! Must find youtube testimony of the cardiologist.
 
Wow! He and the other doctor makes it appear as some have been saying--that there was no doctor/patient relationship here.

Each professional keeps coming up with a list of mistakes that should have not been made in the first place.

In my opinion, it will surprise me if he isn't disbarred after this trial. Does it have to be formally submitted again to do such?
 
Dr Kaimangar
direct , Walgren

Assuming CM finds MJ at noon, calls MAW at 12 12 : what is the significance of these 12 mn ? : lack of blood flow to vital organs, especially to the brain. Some individuals are more susceptible than other to lack of oxygen. Generally it take 3 to 4 mn before brain cells start to die. Time is really important. 911 was called at 12 20. At that point, 20 mn after, it reaches a point where it becomes irreversible.

Deception of paramedics & ER staff : did not provide the acurate info to paramedics and ER staff, deviation of standard of care.

Insomnia :

CM din't properly evaluate insomnia. Insomnia can have may causes, so it's important to have a detailed history. You need to exlude secondary probems (psychological problems, substance abuse, underlying conditions, chronic ansiety, depression , etc...)
Insomnia = no restful sleep for 4 weeks or more. Once you've ruled all the secondary problems, you can talk about primary insomnia.

You need a detailed sleep history : when do they go to bed, when do they fall asleep, when do you wake up, etc.. check sleep apnea. In some cases you need a sleep study.

You need a detailed pharmaceutical history : both prescribed or over the counter (example migraine pills contain caffein, that can cause insomnia), illicit drugs.

You need a detailed physical examination : some underlying conditions can cause insomnia : for example asthma, congestive heart failure, diabetes, bladder problems, enlargement of prostate, thyroid conditions, etc..

You need blood testing to rule out certain conditions : examples diabetes, kidney problem, restless legs , etc..

would a good blood work reveal the use of narcotics ? If you ask for it yes.
If you feel the patient is not giving the information, you can simply refuse to treat that patient ? Yes, absolutely. You can also do a tox screen without his knowledge, but Dr Kaimangar doesn't want to do that.

Then you treat the underlying condition that causes the insomnia.

In this case , CM didn't have a detailed history. Didn't check what the root problem for MJ's insomnia was before treating him.

CM did say that he saw that other doctors were treating MJ, he said he saw IV sites. If he could not get that info from MJ, CM should have refused care, refused to give further medication. CM didn't do that, that was unethical.

Bypassing the evaluation of insomnia, bypassing the detailed history was a deviation of care.

It was obvious there was probably secondary causes in MJ's insomnia (substance abuse or anxiety or depression ) these underlying causes should have been treated.

He talks about sleep hygiene techniques that can help in case of insomnia (using a bedroom to sleep only, amog other things)

He talks about sleep restriction : tell the patien to go to bed later , and limit their time in bed.

You can use relaxation techniques.

All these can usually work better to treat insomnia than pharmacological approach. But pharmacological approach can also be used.

Were those techniques used on MJ ? No. CM went directly to the pharmacological approach.

Phmacetical approach : 3 medications are not benzos and should be used first, because they are not addictive . A newer drug is melatonin something (sorry) , less addictive.

Benzodiazepines : cites 4 different benzos that deal with insmnia. Others are used also, but their main goal is to treat underlyng conditions (anxiey). They are used in tablet form

Midazolam : not appropriate for long term use for primary insomnia
Valium : not appropriate for long term use for primary insomnia
Lorazepam : can be used on short term basis, tablet form. Really addictive after 3 to 4 weeks. Used to treat underlying conditions, not primary innsomnia.

The use of midazolam and lorazepam to treat insomnia was an extreme deviation of care. Especially in IV form.

Propofol : inconceivable to use this drug for the management of insomnia, regardless of the setting. It is «*beyond comrehension, iconceivable, disturbing*». It's beyond a departure of standard of care.
Especially when underlying causes for insomnia were not treated.

Did CM cause MJ's death, even if MJ took lorazepam and propofol himself ? Yes, especially if the patient has had problems of substance abuse. The lorazepam and propofol should not have been within his reach.

Using «*only*» 25 mg propofol there is a risk of respiratory complications ? : yes, absolutely especially if the patient is dehydrated. Any competent doctor would have been aware of the risk.
 
Wow - testimony today put the responsibilty soley on the so called doctor. Any suggestion of addiction being any cause just flew out the window!

I'm sure the jury - like all of those watching - are appalled at CM's behaviour!

Thanks for all your updates!
 
Damn! the cross is not up yet. Is there anywhere else i can watch?
 
Murray always seems to take note's when docs mention other medications, is he trying to educate himself here? I would love to know what goes through that imoral/criminal mind of his.
 
I think it's been a good day today. I have never saw defence so despisable in this trial.
But the fact is because of Murray's 'care" Michael's life was so fragile and it had to be saved, but he's gone... it's just tearing meup.
 
ilmjj said:
thank you again bouee.

Ivy should use your second summary as well. For those of us unable to watch it has been priceless!
Click to expand...

indranee said:
bouee you're my hero! now all I need is a youtube upload of the cross for Steinberg!
Click to expand...

ilmjj said:
Thanks all for the updates. Sooooo appreciated!

bouee your summary was fantastic. THANK YOU!!!
Click to expand...

ilmjj said:
Thanks for this. You have been a life saver today. Actually, everybody has. Hugs and much love to all but especially to our sweet Michael.
Click to expand...

thank you all ; yes everybody has been a life savior today..

Great day for the prosecution, prabably the best since the trial started..

But so sad also, this was so avoidable...

See you all tomorrow, it's 2am here, so off to bed now
 
I didn't follow :( what you wrote last 2 days but I didn't miss a single day of The Trial. It is very exhausting for the body and mentally but...
...perhaps it's not quite appropriate to say but today it was a perfect day and I had a smile on my face for hours. 2 brilliant testimonies but I must particularly comment a first witness Dr. Alon Steinberg or may I call him Dr. Genius. :yes: He was so well prepared... :bow:
Many witnesses do their job, answer to questions in a few words, many witnesses seem nervous and/or confused but Dr. Steinberg was absolutely brilliant. He explained every single detail, often much more than he was asked :) and he conclusively showed to jury that this so-called doctor (murray) is :censored: murderer and Dr. Steinberg did that with style and ease and his facial expression was absolutely priceless. :lol: IMO Flanagan is a good lawyer but thanks to Dr. Steinberg, Flanagan literally looked like a third-rate at best, actually this was probably his worst day at work. :lol:
Dr. Steinberg should have a show on TV like Dr. Oz. :D
 
This is true when I had my surgery my doctor explain to that they will have to wake me up and I will have to answer a question to show that I am awake, so they keep you in a room call the recovery room until you are awake and out of danger from the drug they use to put you to sleep. A standard thing to do.
 
rita.gibson said:
Murray always seems to take note's when docs mention other medications, is he trying to educate himself here? I would love to know what goes through that imoral/criminal mind of his.
Click to expand...

Yeh he probably is as he thinks he wont be convicted and is writing these notes to make sure he dont get in trouble again
 
Watching Murray sitting there - I can't help but think of Michael sitting in a court room like this, day after day after day for months in 2005. Listening to such bullshit. Every eye in the court watching him. Thank God, it wasn't televised - I can't bear to think of him being shown like this all day. How he stood it, I can't conceive. What did he do all day? I can't for the life of me understand why he had to go through so much crap in life and in death.


Yesterday has really got me down. To listen to Steinbeg's testimony....... it's all so sad. I keep hearing that even if Murray gets convicted he would get at most a few months in prison - was it worth that photo being out. Nothin is worth that sort of invasion. Oh Michael!
 
Its nearly 4am here. just got back in from work. thank you all for the great posts. i managed to watch all bar the last 15 mins or so of steinbergs direct testimony on my phone and he sounded great. didnt see any of the cross but managed to read the updates during the court lunchbreak to catch up. so its worth watching the cross even with flanagan bringing up klien? i managed to listen to about 20mins of the other witnesses direct testimony aswell while on a break. i liked the part where he brought up the dehydration aspect. thats something we hadnt heard before. if theres no court friday i guess cause of shafer? scheduling then i wonder who will be up nxt as the media reported these three were the last. and the pros need to make sure they still mention the diprivan studies on oral consumption cause the defence might just be playing games and bring it back up later anyway thanks everyone you really helped me get through along shift but boy it was hard wondering what was going on especially during cross
 
I stayed up as long as I could and watched Steinberg's entire testimony for the prosecution, and got about halfway through the cross. He is AMAZING! What a wonderful man, and he really came prepared, he was schooling Flanagan and proving him wrong the whole time. I love where he was referring himself to the notes. What an amazing guy.. and he had this great big grin on his face the whole time LOL

Is there anywhere I can watch the rest? Some sort of streaming video site or something?
 
I'm sure Michael knew about these as all insomniacs know. But these products give you terrible nightmares. I've tried them all, I know.

I was married to a hypnotherapist who could have make Michael sleep with the snap of his fingers for crying out loud.

Why Michael, why oh why did you always have to fall pray to abusers?

Popescu said:
Does he have info that a behavior approach was taken in the case of Mr Jackson? No.

There are 8 standard agents that are FDA approved in the treatment of insomnia, one is benzodiazepines. From that group, there is also a sub group that is non benzodiazepine such as Ambien, newer drugs.

Melatonin derived drugs can be used for a long time, since the potential addictive is less.
Click to expand...
 
riviera1992 said:
I'm sure Michael knew about these as all insomniacs know. But these products give you terrible nightmares. I've tried them all, I know.

I was married to a hypnotherapist who could have make Michael sleep with the snap of his fingers for crying out loud.

Why Michael, why oh why did you always have to fall pray to abusers?
Click to expand...

I think that's hard to pin since we don't know if Michael could be even hypnotize, unless we're to believe Geller. Also, we don't know if Michael used hypnotherapist or not. Given his personality, however, I'm almost certain he did.

Unless a doctor has Michael's complete medical history of everything he tried for his sleep disorder or if there was a root cause and the insomnia itself was secondary problem, we're all shooting blind. Although, I personally believe that someone like Michael who likes to be in control of things would never put himself in a situation where he was at anyone's complete mercy, even if he trusted the person, unless he thought there was no other choice. There are cases, very few granted, where insomnia is nearly untreatable. If all the solutions for sleep disorders was as easy as the last witness dictated, I doubt we would have people thinking that taking crack, smoking weed, and drinking alcohol were good solutions to get to sleep.
 
I never saw the judge that pissed annoyed and irritated as yesterday. I like him better when he is funny.

IS there no court friday? Thats then 2 days this week :(

I missed the sleepdoc testimony. Read about it in the news papers. Did he call michael an addict, when he said Cm should have be more carefull because of that?
Is he done or is he also a witness today??
 
Yazman said:
I stayed up as long as I could and watched Steinberg's entire testimony for the prosecution, and got about halfway through the cross. He is AMAZING! What a wonderful man, and he really came prepared, he was schooling Flanagan and proving him wrong the whole time. I love where he was referring himself to the notes. What an amazing guy.. and he had this great big grin on his face the whole time LOL

Is there anywhere I can watch the rest? Some sort of streaming video site or something?
Click to expand...

This Youtube channel has the whole trial including last nights direct and cross examinations.
http://www.youtube.com/user/JustMeSTKK
 
I have not been watching the trial in over a week because it's been too much :( However, I'm catching up on yesterday's and it seems to have been a good day for prosecution. I'm going to start watching again.
 
@elusive, I was watching yesterday and hoping you had recorded sky news. It's really worth watching or reading the cross in full.
 
Thank you so much! I caught up on Steinberg's testimony :) I just needed to watch the end of the cross to catch up. I'm going to watch Kamangar's as well now.
 
Hiya yeah i recorded the sky news channel as i had to go to work earlier than i thought and the interactive service wasnt up so i just recorded actual sky news but tbh id prefer just to watch the testimony on the net as seeing it on the t.v makes it more real.

seeing as theres no court tomorrow ill watch steinbergs direct and cross in full then i think as i wont have time today before court starts again and i feel as rough as a dog at the min after not going to bed till 4am.

any info about the next witness after this one currently on. one thing the pros havnt reakly talked about is the reason for the dip and loraz in the stomach interms of what the
coroner said about it being ruptured during
cpr
ng ruptured
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top