Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[bouee]

The burn scar on his head was NOT mentioned, although tiny scars (one-fourth to one-half inch) WERE mentioned. That seems very strange to me. That was surely his most significant scar, and the report said "his hair was short and tightly curled." It must have been very visible?

Yes, definitely strange.... didn't MJ receive a skin transplant for his burns ?(hope you understand me, I'm not sure of the word) In that case where would the scar be ?? Also, on the drawings page 40 it says something about an area that seems to be more or less in the same area as the burns, but I can't read it (it's hand writing)

It does not state that he had lupus. He had various issues with his lungs that the report said about, "Would have caused adverse health effects." There was inflammation and long-term scarring. That lung damage could have been caused by lupus, but the report does not state the cause.

someone else on this thread said that was because it's complicated to diagnose lupus, it takes several tests, blood tests to diagnose it, so that could explain why lupus is not stated in the autopsy report.

Propofol was found in blood and urine. It was ALSO found in his stomach, and the fluid in his EYES. Given that it leaves the body very quickly, that would seem to indicate a massive "bolus" (I.V. push), all at once. A "killing" dose, would seem likely. The Involuntary Manslaughter charge is a joke. . .. . . or worse.

IDK.... The charges (or lack of them) shocked me also.
The anaesthesist report talks about a propofol dose that corresponds to general anaethesia, not a lethal dose. His/her report basically says (well that's my understanding ) that what was lethal was the lack of proper care (proper monitoring, ressucitation equipment, etc ...) and the fact that propofol was mixed with lozarepam made it worse (made the risk of stopping breathing higher ) . I don't know if that changes something with the charge..

It seems obvious that Murray concealed evidence. Why was he not charged with that?

Excellent question. And he lied.

 

[ensleyave]

Sound you are right in Travis Payne interview he said he was on his way over to Michael's house to get that around 1:00. This doesn't make sense.

 

[Autumn II]

Yes, definitely strange.... didn't MJ receive a skin transplant for his burns ?(hope you understand me, I'm not sure of the word) In that case where would the scar be ?? Also, on the drawings page 40 it says something about an area that seems to be more or less in the same area as the burns, but I can't read it (it's hand writing)

I can't read that part, either. He had multiple reconstructive surgeries for the burn scar. It was originally as large as the palm of a man's hand. He had a tendency to form "keloidal" scars (raised scar-tissue, and uncomfortable and unsightly). He had the scar-tissue surgically reduced several times, but I think it kept returning. All that must have been extremely painful for him, for many years. Surely there would be surgical scars, at least, in that area. The scar would have been right on the top of his head. (strange. don't know why the "quote feature" didn't work. Whatever.)

 

[elusive moonwalker]

6 empty glass vial of propofol injectable emulsion

so how much would the above be interms of murray giving mj the dip on the 25th and the 22nd? is it fisable those 6 vials were enough for those 2 days only?

 

[bouee]

anyone answer me please , did they mention when midazolam found at the house was bought ? know it was not prescribed to anyone , but when it was bought ? It's very important , those who read the report anything on propofol vials , I know for sue those 8 bottles found were not used that night/morning IMPOSSIBLE from the urine concentration , but WHEN they were bought ? Are they the same bottles he bought on may 14 ? lidocaine found and given that day was bought on may 14, but what about midazolam and porpofol ?

No, there's no info about that. Maybe the serch warrants will give a clue ?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

didn't MJ receive a skin transplant for his burns

he one of those ops were a ballon was put under the skin in order to streach the skin. remember someone in an interview said mj showed it to him at the time

It seems obvious that Murray concealed evidence. Why was he not charged with that?

thats what i dont get either. wish someone would ask the D.A these questions. not that u would get an answer

 

[twinklEE]

thats what i dont get either. wish someone would ask the D.A these questions. not that u would get an answer

I think they wanna get rid of this case asap, hence the lesser charges and no additional charges whatsoever. They're charging him b/c they have to, not b/c he is a ''criminal'' in their eyes. IMO.

 

[daisy]

no, there's no info about that. Maybe the serch warrants will give a clue ?

MIZADOLAM was also on the receipt from May 12

 

[rainny]

he one of those ops were a ballon was put under the skin in order to streach the skin. remember someone in an interview said mj showed it to him at the time

Arnold Klein spoke about that. Another doctor had been doing it until

Klein told MJ that he should stop because it wasn't working well for him

but actually causing more damage.

It's in one of the two interviews Arnold did with Larry King in the summer, I

think.

 

[rainny]

For the person asking about Lupus and medications for it:

http://www.lupus.org/webmodules/web...nunderstanding.aspx?articleid=2231&zoneid=523

"For most people with lupus, proper treatment can minimize symptoms, reduce inflammation and pain, and stop the development of serious organ damage."

"There has not been a drug approved specifically for the treatment of lupus in more than 40 years. "

"Corticosteroids (also known as glucocorticoids, cortisone or steroids) are synthetic (man-made) drugs designed to work like the body’s naturally occurring hormones produced by the adrenal glands, in particular cortisol. Hormones are the body’s chemical messengers that regulate most of the body’s functions. Cortisol helps regulate blood pressure and the immune system, and it is the body’s most potent anti-inflammatory hormone. Corticosteroids prescribed for autoimmune diseases are different from the anabolic steroids that weightlifters and other athletes sometimes take to increase strength."

"Steroid medications work quickly to decrease the swelling, warmth, tenderness, and pain that are associated with inflammation. They do this by lessening the immune system’s response. Prednisone is the most commonly prescribed steroid for lupus. Prednisolone and methyl-prednisolone (Medrol®) are similar to prednisone, and some physicians prefer to prescribe these if you have liver problems."


10 pills of Predinisone were issued for MJ, on April 25th, according to the autopsy

report.

Antibiotics are also commonly prescribed, and there are two of them on the list

of MJ's prescriptions. One is Amoxicillin, and the other is Azithromycin.

There is also an over the counter ointment among his items which is used by

people with Lupus.

 

[rainny]

On page 10 of autopsy report: small tube of Ultravate.

http://www.drugs.com/pro/ultravate.html
"Ultravate® (halobetasol propionate ointment) Ointment, 0.05% contains halobetasol propionate, a synthetic corticosteroid for topical dermatological use. The corticosteroids constitute a class of primarily synthetic steroids used topically as an anti-inflammatory and antipruritic agent."

 

[Cookie Monzter]

so how much would the above be interms of murray giving mj the dip on the 25th and the 22nd? is it fisable those 6 vials were enough for those 2 days only?

How much was used would depend on how many hours Michael was being sedated for (which we don't know) and the rate the propofol was being given. Does it say what volume the empty vials are? I can't seem to find it...

 

[Cookie Monzter]

I understand that the medical data is very complex. I'm sure it matters, a lot, but I think that for us primary focus should probably be on the timeline, who-said-what and when (at least as far as we know), and that sort of thing? (Unless there is a doctor on the board, or forensic specialist?) Just a suggestion, though.

There are some strangenesses in the autopsy report that make me think it is not entirely accurate. (won't get into that just yet, though.) Plus, the TOD remains obscure. There are certain factors that make it difficult to pinpoint with accuracy, but yet the report should include an estimate, if nothing else.

I agree that an in depth discussion relating to the medical side of things is difficult without the necessary expertise and information. I am a doctor but by no means claim to be anywhere near an expert on propofol as I'm not an anaesthetist. From the discussion in the thread, I'm sure there are a few others here with a medical background as well. If there's a forensic specialist on the board, that would be great!

What strangeness in the report are you referring to?

 

[Soundmind]

MIZADOLAM was also on the receipt from May 12

As we first reported, authorities found 11 vials of Propofol ... 3 100 ml vials and 8 20 ml vials. None of the bottles had prescription directions, patient or doctor names.

that's what TMZ said , 100ml vials have each 1000mg of propofol , 20ml vials have each 200mg propofol . Based on the urine concentration there is no way he used these amounts during the last two days of his life .

we have the urine scene 450ml with propofol concentration of 0.10 and the urine bladder 550 with 0.15 . NO that's impossible .

yeah three 100ml would have been enough to sedate MJ for 7 to 8 hours , but from the urine concentration they were not used the last two days .


so from the search warrant he bought on may 12, 4 100ml of propofol and 1 10/ml of propofol . he bought lidocaine on that date , and the lidocaine found at the house was bought on may 14 .

Until now we have two dates , 12 & 14 may .

 

[Beachlover]

sorry for interrupting your conservation,but I have a question.

Did the autopsy report confirm that Michael still produced normal functioning sperms?Which page is this information mentioned?

thanks in advance

PAGE 35 of 51

It stated normal scrotum and testes. The right and left testes show active stermatogenesis with the usual number of leydig cells.

He was producing sperm cells.

 

[Beachlover]

He lied about giving lorazepam on 22, 23 because he did not want to admit that the first day he used lorazepam with propofol HE ENDED KILLING HIM .

the amounts in MJ's urine does not support a theory of an hour and 20 minutes of propofol , it was given for less than half an hour , even less than 15 minutes , that's what the urine concentration says .

so it does fit with the first timeline , but when MJ died ? was it at 11 or 12 ?

what we know from the beads he died on the bed , but when ? we don't know .

This is what I said all along. The Propofol worked quickly. Why do you keep thinking an hour and 20 minutes? I think he gave it at 12.

 

[Beachlover]

That´s from search warrant

"MURRAY felt that JACKSON may have been forming an addiction to PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN),
and tried to wean JACKSON off of the drug.On June 22,2009, two days prior to his death, he gave
JACKSON 25 mg PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), along with LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN), and MIDAZOLAM
(VERSED). JACKSON was able to sleep with this mixture ofmedications. On June 23, 2009, he gave
JACKSON LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN) and MIDAZOLAM (VERSED) only, withholding any
PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), and JACKSON was able to sleep."

It means Murray lied - he DID NOT do anything to supposedly "wean Michael off" the "forming addiction" as he DID NOT give him these other drugs the nights before.

Wait. What about the 24th? Or is the day of death the 24th? (I know it is the 25th, but then where is the 24th?"

 

[daisy]

Wait. What about the 24th? Or is the day of death the 24th? (I know it is the 25th, but then where is the 24th?"

No, the next sentence is about the first medicine (valium) at 1.30 on the 25th.

 

[Beachlover]

I read the coroner's report. It was one of the most difficult documents I ever read. I felt sick to my stomach when I read it because it is so graphic and I also felt really bad for invading Michael's privacy like that. But that being said I think for those who can stomach it, reading it or at least this thread is important. We need to come to our own conclusions just like it was in the trial. Thank you so much everyone here for explaining things and sharing your knowledge. Thanks especially to all those who explain the medical stuff.

 

[Beachlover]

Propofol was found in blood and urine. It was ALSO found in his stomach, and the fluid in his EYES. Given that it leaves the body very quickly, that would seem to indicate a massive "bolus" (I.V. push), all at once. A "killing" dose, would seem likely. The Involuntary Manslaughter charge is a joke. . .. . . or worse.
It seems obvious that Murray concealed evidence. Why was he not charged with that?

Ok Victoria, I will attempt to explain this since many are confused about this part. Propofol is a drug that 'saturates' everywhere. Our bodies act like a sponge to it. It is not abnormal that it was in the stomach and eyes. The odd part for all of us is that we don't normally see this type of report, so hearing this information makes it seem strange, but really, it isn't in the world of forensics.

The stomach part is seepage and not from drinking. It also would have come out in his breath such as an alcohol breathalyzer would do with alcohol.

There is a fine line between the proper dosage and the dose for general anesthesia which requires intubation. That doesn't make for a massive dose but just more than he should have used for gentle sedation.

If he had a portable ventilator and intubated it is likely we would not be here discussing this.

 

[bouee]

Regarding the burn, there is a scar on Michaels head where the burn was and a bald spot there. It does say his hair is balding and sparse in the front but the two as far as I know are non related.

Where did you see it in the report ? I didn't see it, or maybe didn't understand it ?

 

[Soundmind]

Wait. What about the 24th? Or is the day of death the 24th? (I know it is the 25th, but then where is the 24th?"

where did I say he gave it for an hour and 20 minutes ? He said he gave it for an hour and 20 minutes ( originally he claimed it was for ten minutes) , I said it was probably less than 15 minutes .

But we don't know when he died , the beads did say he died on the bed BUT WHEN that was ?

and he did not give it at 12 , at 12 and prior to 12 he was on the phone talking to different people .

they determined the beads abrasions were perimortem , but they did not say anything about the injuries caused by the CPR , paramedics and doctors . They did not classify these injuries , WHY ?

 

[rainny]

Wait. What about the 24th? Or is the day of death the 24th? (I know it is the 25th, but then where is the 24th?"

On Wednesday, the 24th, he was at the Staples center. When he returned

home, since it was passed midnight, it was already Thrusday, 25th.

 

[RedMaryFlint]

There is a fine line between the proper dosage and the dose for general anesthesia which requires intubation. That doesn't make for a massive dose but just more than he should have used for gentle sedation.

That raises a question for me. The medical expert quoted in the report says a similar thing:

“the narrow margin between mere sedation and full general anesthesia,. The levels of propofol found on [the] toxicology exam are similar to those found during general anesthesia for major surgery (intra-abdominal) with propofol infusions.”

So there is a fine line between the dosage at which the patient is unconscious but still breathing on his own and the point at which he is completely "out" and needs intubation. If Murray gave an amount of propofol appropriate for major surgery, is that near the line, or well over it? It sounds like from her wording that it is clearly beyond what's called for.

 

[Soundmind]

That raises a question for me. The medical expert quoted in the report says a similar thing:

So there is a fine line between the dosage at which the patient is unconscious but still breathing on his own and the point at which he is completely "out" and needs intubation. If Murray gave an amount of propofol appropriate for major surgery, is that near the line, or well over it? It sounds like from her wording that it is clearly beyond what's called for.

it is within the limit for general anethesia 4.1 is within the normal range 1,3-8.6 . the problem was lorazepam also . Lorazepam did play a big role in what happened . He did a very dangerous mix that day , I want to know why he used lorazepam that day , it did not work with MJ before , so why did he use it again?

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

And no where does it say that MJ had a prosthetic nose so the tabloids can piss off with the stupid story.

 

[twinklEE]

And no where does it say that MJ had a prosthetic nose so the tabloids can piss off with the stupid story.

I hope to God NO 'fan' believed in this story, heck, I didn't even believe in this prior to becoming a fan and this prosthetic nose BS was around even back in 2001 and earlier.

 

[daisy]

On Wednesday, the 24th, he was at the Staples center. When he returned

home, since it was passed midnight, it was already Thrusday, 25th.

Yes, because previously Murray was with Michael at "night" - on 22/23th and on 23/24th and in the search warrant report it states 22 and 23.

He didn't need to stay till next day late morning like on 25th.

 

[Beachlover]

I agree that an in depth discussion relating to the medical side of things is difficult without the necessary expertise and information. I am a doctor but by no means claim to be anywhere near an expert on propofol as I'm not an anaesthetist. From the discussion in the thread, I'm sure there are a few others here with a medical background as well. If there's a forensic specialist on the board, that would be great!

What strangeness in the report are you referring to?

Welcome to the discussion. Glad to see a doctor here. I am trying to find information on Propofol clearance, as in time it takes to get to the bladder and of course, there is the factor that we are not forensic specialists who might also know if the drug would remain there and for how long. Do you understand what I am asking?

 

[Beachlover]

where did I say he gave it for an hour and 20 minutes ? He said he gave it for an hour and 20 minutes ( originally he claimed it was for ten minutes) , I said it was probably less than 15 minutes .

But we don't know when he died , the beads did say he died on the bed BUT WHEN that was ?

and he did not give it at 12 , at 12 and prior to 12 he was on the phone talking to different people .

they determined the beads abrasions were perimortem , but they did not say anything about the injuries caused by the CPR , paramedics and doctors . They did not classify these injuries , WHY ?

Ok. I see what you are saying. I have to look at the time lines again also because I thought the calls were made at 10 something.

They did mention the injuries caused by CPR in several places. It seems there was blood being pumped but now we have the confusion from the hospital in where they put a balloon pump to get the heart beating. Understand what I mean? This will mean that any damage done to the body (if any veins or arteries were damaged during CPR or other manipulation) would cause blood flow into the area and I see that in the autopsy.

Since the autopsy is divided into sections like Radiology (x rays), Visual Inspection, etc, it is necessary to look at each part and then put all reports together to make a conclusion. Now, I am not a forensic scientist and I'm not a doctor but I am not as dumb as a box of rocks either if you get what I am saying. This is not my specialty and I have been reading reference manuals, drug reports, other toxicology information, etc. I'm trying to piece things together and then on top of that there is a time line that comes from several places.

I have to read the report another time entirely. I have read it about 4 or 5 times now but its a lot to digest. I am also not a forensic scientist and there are things that they know that we don't.

I'll give an example. Your body doesn't entirely 'stop' just because you are gone. Some things continue. Some drugs will continue to pass over membranes and have some cellular exchange. The simplest explanation is that of an ice cube melting. Sometimes these 'values' can change. This is why a forensic pathologist is used.

Perhaps the doctor on board can explain that part better.