Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / Trial date April 2, 2013

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

And THAT is why I didn't want to mention it. This is NOT "speculation." It was SEEN, by several people from this board, and that comprises eye-witness accounts, which has nothing to do with "speculation." We are not "speculating" about what we saw. We DID see it, and for anyone to say that we did not, or that we are "speculating" about what we saw, disrespects our credibility, and I am NOT going down that road yet again. Xthunderx2, and I, and I believe Mechi saw it, as well, (and I'm sure there are others) and we are NOT lying. We saw what we saw. It was not a mass-hallucination. Why did he tell fans? I have no idea as to his motivations. I just know what I saw and heard. How that fits into a larger picture IS "speculation," but the witnessing of the video is NOT speculation.

What it means in a larger context, I really couldn't say. A momentary thought Michael had? Or what? The video existed and then was taken down. And that's IT. We should move on from that discussion.

The video was there, and then it was gone. What that MEANS, I am not "speculating" about.

If the video was taken down ask ourselves why it was taken down? Was it taken down because the person who took was threatened by some kind of legal action? Was it taken down because maybe it was out of context?

 

[TheChosenOne]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Hmm. Okay. Thank you, Alma. My personal view is that presuming that Michael's insomnia got worse, it may well have to do with the creative process - his mind ticking over with ideas and thoughts of how to be innovative, different. I know when I am working on a theatre project that is what happens to me. I can't sleep because all these thoughts are flying through my head. I am not necessarily stressed.

I am just saying that there may well be other reasons why.

But as Autumn II said we need to move on from this discussion. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

And how do you know he hadn't told anyone but those fans? Instead of indirectly stating that fans here that saw that video are lying or are delusional, when they merely described what they saw. Maybe Michael too was a liar then.

If he had told other people this lawsuit would have been better but together then it was. And his Mother who saw him a week before he died said he was fine everything was fine and that is how she wanted to remember him laughing and happy. If he was in such distress he was not acting like it

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Hmm. Okay. Thank you, Alma. My personal view is that presuming that Michael's insomnia got worse, it may well have to do with the creative process - his mind ticking over with ideas and thoughts of how to be innovative, different. I know when I am working on a theatre project that is what happens to me. I can't sleep because all these thoughts are flying through my head. I am not necessarily stressed.

I am just saying that there may well be other reasons why.

But as Autumn II said we need to move on from this discussion. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

agreed

 

[Alma]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

And THAT is why I didn't want to mention it. This is NOT "speculation." It was SEEN, by several people from this board, and that comprises eye-witness accounts, which has nothing to do with "speculation." We are not "speculating" about what we saw. We DID see it, and for anyone to say that we did not, or that we are "speculating" about what we saw, disrespects our credibility, and I am NOT going down that road yet again. Xthunderx2, and I, and I believe Mechi saw it, as well, (and I'm sure there are others) and we are NOT lying. We saw what we saw. It was not a mass-hallucination. Why did he tell fans? I have no idea as to his motivations. I just know what I saw and heard. How that fits into a larger picture IS "speculation," but the witnessing of the video is NOT speculation.

What it means in a larger context, I really couldn't say. A momentary thought Michael had? Or what? The video existed and then was taken down. And that's IT. We should move on from that discussion.

The video was there, and then it was gone. What that MEANS, I am not "speculating" about.

Thank you. .. I don't really understand hostile reactions like these that are placing some people in the 'loonies' conspirationalists category. That's utterly ridiculous to be having to believe Only what you see, if that were the case, than what went on in Michael's room that fateful day would be most heavy speculation and nothing more, and Murray very well be the innocent party in all this. .... Ridiculous.

Reliable people on here saw what they saw and that's that, take it or leave it, but don't bother accusing people of making this up, when it's such a serious issue.

 

[Alma]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Hmm. Okay. Thank you, Alma. My personal view is that presuming that Michael's insomnia got worse, it may well have to do with the creative process - his mind ticking over with ideas and thoughts of how to be innovative, different. I know when I am working on a theatre project that is what happens to me. I can't sleep because all these thoughts are flying through my head. I am not necessarily stressed.

I am just saying that there may well be other reasons why.

But as Autumn II said we need to move on from this discussion. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

The creativity process, of course, was also a thing to occupy his mind. ... I don't understand this hostile attitude and quitely rude one too. That doesn't change the fact that Michael said the things that he did. Yes, I realize the people that claim to have seen that video are deemed as liars, which is disrespectful at best, since one of them actually was a moderator here.

Besides, I feel that some are supposed to actually fear discussing important things like that, well, I won't, as this is a discussion forum, and this discussion very well is related to this case. Will I focus on this more? After Murray's trial, certainly. So some may breathe a sigh of relief that some conspiracy 'loonies' won't disturb their priceless peace in the near future.

..

 

[Alma]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

If he had told other people this lawsuit would have been better but together then it was. And his Mother who saw him a week before he died said he was fine everything was fine and that is how she wanted to remember him laughing and happy. If he was in such distress he was not acting like it

And your point is? .. Yeah, I can see that Michael's gonna be the one to be blamed next, been done before. I again will ask unless you know he had complained to others, than arguing with me and other 'loonies' is in vain.

If you don't believe these people that saw the video, then don't and move on. Instead pf starting unnecessary arguments like that. ....

 

[ivy]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

My question is - whether Michael agreed to do 10, 31 or 50 shows, how is it connected to his death?

It is connected with the way his insomnia got very serious. Then it took a moronic 'doctor' to take advantage of that fully (pumping him with propofol and medication), this leading to the tragedy on June 25.

I'll just say this - in my opinion it doesn't matter because 50 concerts mean preparing 1 concert and repeating it 50 times.

The most stressful concert will be the 1st one as you worry about whether you'll be ready on time , will it go okay, will the reactions be positive etc etc. Once you pass that phase then the concerts became routine.

So sure he could be stressed about the concerts, worried about how would they go etc but I really do not think the numbers would mean additional stress. (Ps : Michael being unhappy with aspects of the concert series is another thing)

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Even if all of what you are saying what others are saying was true why was this lawsuit filed the way it was? There is a lot in this lawsuit that we has fans was able to pick out as being wrong. I mean really

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

And your point is? .. Yeah, I can see that Michael's gonna be the one to be blamed next, been done before. I again will ask unless you know he had complained to others, than arguing with me and other 'loonies' is in vain.

If you don't believe these people that saw the video, then don't and move on. Instead pf starting unnecessary arguments like that. ....

No one is arguing with you I am just stating how I feel just like what you are doing. When someone disagrees with you they are rude and argumentative?

 

[Alma]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Yes, this lawsuit has got many holes in this, this we can agree on. ..

And we can also agree on the fact that Murray is the prime thing to be focused on in light of his trial, he's the one that was in the room with Michael and pumped him to death. After his trial, this discussion should be resumed, as it's highly important. .. But right now.. it's unnecessary energy getting consumed. ..

 

[ivy]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Even if all of what you are saying what others are saying was true why was this lawsuit filed the way it was? There is a lot in this lawsuit that we has fans was able to pick out as being wrong. I mean really

You are right but I think there's a legit question in this case.

I don't think civil conspiracy would have hold - and it didn't. I don't think negligent hiring will hold either during the trial.

But AEG was in the process of hiring Murray , they were going to give him 150K per month and Murray had a list of equipments. I think what AEG knew or should know and whether they needed to supervise or not is a legit question that needs to be answered.

I'm not saying AEG killed or intended to kill Michael but whether or not they share responsibility for Murray's actions is a question that needs to be answered.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

And I agree with you but having said that how can the Jackson family and some fans expect AEG to know about Propofol? I mean his family did not know She says they should have known but what goes on between a doctor and his patenice is private

 

[Alma]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

True, Ivy...

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

I'm not saying AEG killed or intended to kill Michael but whether or not they share responsibility for Murray's actions is a question that needs to be answered.

In my opinion, the fact that Michael had PRIOR history with Murray will also play a part.

I think the number is something like "3-years prior history." If true, it's not like Murray was a stranger to Michael and the care Murray was "supposedly" giving Michael during that 3-year period cause any problems.

That being said, I STILL believe that AEG never planned to hire Murray, they were stalling, hoping that Michael would change his mind by the time he arrived in London. I mean, what the heck was the hold-up? Everybody else had been signed and was already being paid. Everybody except Conrad Murray.

In my opinion, that speaks volumes!

 

[moodyblue97]

I saw that video too, but I didn´t listen good enough. I´ve talked to fans who saw it and I have no reason to not believe them. I think it was taken down when the news reach media, it was in the papers just a few days after wasn´t it? It was a paparazzi who filmed it. I wish Ben (papz) knew who it was.

And Thome was in control of everything, Michael didn´t even know how much he had in his accounts and he was afraid of him. That video is still out there.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

We will find out a lot about this when the trial starts

 

[Justthefacts]

I saw that video too, but I didn´t listen good enough. I´ve talked to fans who saw it and I have no reason to not believe them. I think it was taken down when the news reach media, it was in the papers just a few days after wasn´t it? It was a paparazzi who filmed it. I wish Ben (papz) knew who it was.

And Thome was in control of everything, Michael didn´t even know how much he had in his accounts and he was afraid of him. That video is still out there.

Wasn't all that afraid of him he canned him

 

[ivy]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Perhaps they didn't know about Propofol but was any red flags raised? - either by Michael's health or Murray's equipment requests. and they could have asked questions and Murray could have assured them everything was fine. The scenarios are endless.

Like I said I don't know the real scenario or the answers here , it's just that there's a legit question of "is there a responsibility here?".

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

I also don't believe that AEG would have been laying out that type of money for production cost for 10, 15, 30 shows. That was way too much money, for only a handful of shows, in my opinion.

Renting a house for Michael to live in. If the story is true regarding the furniture being made specifically for Michael's home in London, including the chair for Elizabeth Taylor (LOL) to sit in when she came to visit. All of those plans were put in place well in advance. They "could" have rented Michael a bunch of hotel rooms and called it George.

Ain't nobody doing all so that Michael can do a handful of shows, in my opinion.

(When did the first reports come out regarding Michael looking for a home in London to live in while he did the O2 shows? Does anybody remember?)

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Murray did ask for medical equipment for London they asked him why and he said Michael was in great health but he needed it just in case. And when they had that meeting at Michael's house when someone said something about Michael loosing weight or when Kenny sent Michael home Murray told them Michael was fine. But like you said we can go on forever

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Like I said I don't know the real scenario or the answers here , it's just that there's a legit question of "is there a responsibility here?".

In my opinion, that would also bring up Murray's nastyness towards Kenny Ortega. When he told Ortega, Michael was fine, and that he should mind his business.

What do you do, when the doctor says: "MY patient is fine," and you yourself are not a doctor.

Also, when Murray made claims to the insurance guy, that he should disregard all of the news reports regarding Michael's health, because Michael was fine. I mean, do you listen to the doctor or do you continue to listen to the news reports and that would included the insurance guy AND AEG.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

You are right but I think there's a legit question in this case.

I don't think civil conspiracy would have hold - and it didn't. I don't think negligent hiring will hold either during the trial.

But AEG was in the process of hiring Murray , they were going to give him 150K per month and Murray had a list of equipments. I think what AEG knew or should know and whether they needed to supervise or not is a legit question that needs to be answered.

I'm not saying AEG killed or intended to kill Michael but whether or not they share responsibility for Murray's actions is a question that needs to be answered.

And THAT is the point (see bolded). There are two issues here. One is obviously the criminal trial, and Murray's culpability. The other is the civil suit (which is the topic of this thread.) About the first issue, there is no evidence (that we know of) that anyone but Murray was with Michael on that final night/morning. To me, a lot of those other "themes" are red-herrings in terms of the criminal trial.

As far as AEG is concerned? That is the subject of the civil suit. There is evidence that AEG intended to hire Murray, i.e. the unsigned contract on the seat of Murray's car, and the email correspondence between Murray and someone at AEG named "Tim." In that correspondence, Murray was asking for medical equipment that should have raised red-flags. Did it? Doesn't seem like it. Was "Tim" an underling at AEG, or an exec, or what? That may come out in the civil suit.

The civil suit is not about a "conspiracy." It's about AEG's responsibility, or NOT, in Murray's role in Michael's death.

In terms of that video? Enough of us here saw it so that there should be no further speculation about whether it was or was not there. It WAS. We have no idea who removed it, or why. THAT would be speculation.

 

[ivy]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

The civil suit is not about a "conspiracy." It's about AEG's responsibility, or NOT, in Murray's role in Michael's death.

a little correction here: Katherine did claim civil conspiracy initially but when the judge asked for proof and none was given it was removed from the case.

The court said "the object to get him to rehearsals" doesn't satisfy conspiracy requirement as conspiracy needs to be an action that is wrongful or illegal - getting someone to work isn't illegal. Court asked for an evidence of AEG telling/making Murray "administering a drug illegally to get him to rehearsals" and also noted that if there was such a thing it would be a criminal conspiracy.

in short they couldn't support the conspiracy claim.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

a little correction here: Katherine did claim civil conspiracy initially but when the judge asked for proof and none was given it was removed from the case.

The court said "the object to get him to rehearsals" doesn't satisfy conspiracy requirement as conspiracy needs to be an action that is wrongful or illegal - getting someone to work isn't illegal. Court asked for an evidence of AEG telling/making Murray "administering a drug illegally to get him to rehearsals" and also noted that if there was such a thing it would be a criminal conspiracy.

in short they couldn't support the conspiracy claim.

Got it. That's clear, and thanks. As far as we know, AEG didn't give Murray the "CPR machine" requested in that email, and that may have been the end of their correspondence about that (or, their inquisitiveness?)

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

wasnt the machine requested for london? along with the nurse etc

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

There is evidence that AEG intended to hire Murray, i.e. the unsigned contract on the seat of Murray's car, and the email correspondence between Murray and someone at AEG named "Tim."

How does any of that constitute that AEG INTENDED to hire Murray?

In my opinion, an unsigned contract means nothing.

Especially, if we are to believe that Murray spent so much time with Michael at his home. If I recall correctly, Kai Chase even mentioned Murray having dinner with Michael on a number of occassions.

I wonder why Murray didn't take the unsigned contract off of his car seat and just bring it into Michael's home so that it could be executed by Michael?

 

[Vici]

(When did the first reports come out regarding Michael looking for a home in London to live in while he did the O2 shows? Does anybody remember?)

Yes, just a week or so after he announced the shows. I remember the story where it said he was gonna rent Rod Stewarts house

"March 11, 2009 - Michael Jackson and Rod Stewart
Michael Jackson Photos (94) Michael Jackson is renting Rod Stewart's house. The pop superstar will live in the "Maggie May" singer's Essex mansion when he comes to London to play his 10-show residency at The O2 arena in July.

The house boasts 180 acres, has its own soccer pitch field and is located 3.5 miles outside Greater London.

A source said: "It's going to be perfect for Michael and his kids."

Then in late March as well a story about MJ renting a home in London. Be aware, the SUN reported it soo yeah.. *rolls eyes*

"By Alastair Jamieson 9:54AM GMT 28 Mar 2009
The singer is reported to have paid £1 million to rent a large country house near the edge of an ancient 22-mile maze of haunted passageways.

The undisclosed home is thought to be close to the Chislehurst Caves in Bromley, in the south-east suburbs of London.

Ghost sightings have been reported at the caves, which were dug in chalk by the Saxons, Druids and Romans.

A property source told The Sun: "His team signed up this week to stay there. We're not sure if he knows about the caves but they're all around."

I also remember Randy Phillips talking about that they had sent their people over to find the best house for Michael. I think he said that when the shows were pushed back.. he and Kenny did some kind of live interview for the fans and I think thats when he said it (migh be wrong) .. Im sure Randy DID say something about finding a house for Mike

 

[Vici]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Segye Times (the Korean newspaper that Joe - Katherine and Jermaine promised a Jackson 5 concert , took advances and never paid back) has filed a notice of lien with the court for $13.6 million - meaning that if Katherine wins the case against AEG (or settles out of court) and gets a monetary payment they want to get that (up to $13.6M) to satisfy Katherine's debt to them.

Katherine has 30 days (till April 21) to file an exemption claim to this request.

Ivy or someone else for that matter... I know Segye Times filed a claim last year but what happened with that? I remember the judge said something about but dont remember and cant find any information about it here.

Segye Times, a South Korean newspaper, filed papers with the Michael Jackson estate, informing the court it got a judgment against Katherine in 1994 for $4 million. That's when the newspaper advanced Katherine, Joe and Jermaine $5.5 million for a series of Jackson family concerts that never took place.

Segye claims with interest the judgment now exceeds $13 million, and it wants an order from the judge forcing the estate to pay Segye any money the estate might pay Katherine.

Now here's how Katherine screwed herself. By making all the deals she's been making -- for books, gala events and such -- she's made it clear to the world her goal is to roll in dough and Segye has taken notice.


Edwin Bradley, a lawyer for the Segye Times tells TMZ, his client will go after anything Katherine and Joe make -- and that includes profits from Katherine's book, the movie projects she's producing with Howard Mann (pictured right) -- everything.

Ironically, Katherine's allowance from the MJ estate could be in jeopardy, since she's making money off of her son on the side. But the allowance could actually be protected from garnishment.

We're told the newspaper will go to court on September 14 to try and wrestle money earmarked for Katherine from the MJ trust. Sources tell us, however, there is a big fat zero in the trust now, because the estate is in debt.

So what happened with this? The judge must have said/done something that prohibted them from getting back their money from what she makes on the side with Mann.

Whats the chance she will win the AEG case? That will be tough and Segye have grater chance to get back their money from her sideprojects with Mann I believe.

 

[ivy]

Re: Update : Case stays alive/ Ortega removed/ Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / AEG wants case dismis

Ivy or someone else for that matter... I know Segye Times filed a claim last year but what happened with that? I remember the judge said something about but dont remember and cant find any information about it here.

So what happened with this? The judge must have said/done something that prohibted them from getting back their money from what she makes on the side with Mann.

Whats the chance she will win the AEG case? That will be tough and Segye have grater chance to get back their money from her sideprojects with Mann I believe.

I'm sure that they are filing requests from everything - as we can see from the AEG case. and they could be getting partial money which is not enough to pay the $13.6 M debt.

fyi : for example a person earns $5000 per month, you can't get all of that money for the debt. The court will leave that person a certain amount that they can live on and then give the rest to the debtor. So what Segye has collected could be minimal.