Latest on MJJC

Murray Trial - 12 October - Day 11 - Discussion

Oh the irony! randy in court heard to be muttering that its not true when flanagan was bringing up klien and saying mj was a demoral addict.
 
my thoughts are this..with all of the expert witnesses that we had yesterday ,,,they did an outstanding job to say the very least. They pointed out each and every mistake that Murray made in not giving Michael the proper standard of care. The pros has MORE than proven their case with this IM charge. The defense can spin the rest of this however they want to...I believe the jury GETS IT. The rest of this trial is just going to be to much,,,no matter what the defense does they CANNOT say that the proper equipment to save Micheal's life was in that room...because it wasn't. No expert that they get.. can change that fact What we will continue to hear is them trying to prove that Michael was a addict,,,,they will say some terrible things, But again the charge is IM...and the pros has already proven their case .imo.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Oh the irony! randy in court heard to be muttering that its not true when flanagan was bringing up klien and saying mj was a demoral addict.
Click to expand...

yes you are correct irony....


oh yeah,,,,who is suppose to testify on Friday that could not make it?
 
I hope Kamanger holds fast and digs his heels in when it comes to the cross later. He needs to be as focused as Steinberg.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
I. so its worth watching the cross even with flanagan bringing up klien?
Click to expand...

Hi Elusive, yes it's definitely worth watching IMO. It was a little bit like Dr Cooper's cross by Flanagan, only it was much worse for Murray. Most of the questions Flanagan asked turned against Murray, to the point Flanagan almost called Murray a liar...it was almost funny at times. It was like :
claudiadoina said:
I think flanagan is on prose payroll and he is infiltrated in defence team
Click to expand...
.

Dr Steinberg was fantastic, he knew very well what he was talking about. He was using Murray's interview, so Murray's own words, the defense was cornered, had no way out. Flanagan should have ended the cross, but instead he kept on, letting the jury and us hear a lot more nice things about Murray's incompetence.

Don't worry about the demerol and Klein, the objection was sustained, and the only answer about that blew up in Murrays and Flanagans face... big time. Steinberg was like "What ??!!! Are you telling me your client was prescribing to an addict ???!! " Looks like Steinberg thought it was a funny question coming from Murray's defense lawyer.
 
Thanks. ill defo watch it then. gonna watch the direct of the other dr first so im upto date when cross starts today as i only saw about 20 mins of his direct on the stream yest. and ill watch steinberg cross tom seeing as we have a free day
 
Thanks for the updates and youtube links. Caught up with steinberg - mr hot doc - on the direct and the cross. If this was a boxing match, the referee would have had to step in. I was actually surprised the defence came back after the break, and didn't just ask to go straight to sentencing! It was looking that bad.

Did i pick up from flannagan that they are now backing away from murray being away from mj for just 2 mins, or was being out of the room for 20 mins just one of the hypotheticals flannagan threw out? i got confused, which was perhaps flannagan's intention.

I'm really not sure how the defence are going to get round the 911 issue. I have a really vague recollection early in the trial the defence asking the security if they would allow the police in through the gates and can't remember what was said. But this would just mean murray making two calls, 911 and to security or one call to security to call 911.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Thanks for the updates and youtube links. Caught up with steinberg - mr hot doc - on the direct and the cross. If this was a boxing match, the referee would have had to step in. I was actually surprised the defence came back after the break, and didn't just ask to go straight to sentencing! It was looking that bad.

Did i pick up from flannagan that they are now backing away from murray being away from mj for just 2 mins, or was being out of the room for 20 mins just one of the hypotheticals flannagan threw out? i got confused, which was perhaps flannagan's intention.

I'm really not sure how the defense are going to get round the 911 issue. I have a really vague recollection early in the trial the defence asking the security if they would allow the police in through the gates and can't remember what was said. But this would just mean murray making two calls, 911 and to security or one call to security to call 911.
Click to expand...

I thought that Steinberg was by far the strongest witness. He basically DESTROYED the defense. I think the defense must be backing away from Murray's entire statement, and not only the timeline he gave? He lied to THEM, as well, and they just used what they had to go on. Now, the lies are obvious. I do wish Murray would give it up, now. Can't see how this case is winnable.

What is happening here, is that there is "meta-evidence," as in FOUNDATIONAL, and there is trivia. The defense case is almost entirely trivia. Steinberg testified about six points of gross negligence, and the next witness confirmed. So in that sense, "amounts of medications," in which organs, don't really matter very much? Or which tubing was located where, and what was found by testing? NOTHING can negate Murray's failure to call 911 in a timely way. Minutes MATTER. Even seconds matter. Nothing can negate the remaining "five instances of gross negligence," either.

Steinberg was a FANTASTIC witness. At one point, he reversed the roles and was actually QUESTIONING Flanagan. Flanagan was flustered, and was answering the witness' questions! If Steinberg didn't seal the deal, I can't imagine what would. It was a home-run.
 
claudiadoina said:
I think flanagan is on prose payroll and he is infiltrated in defence team
Click to expand...

rainny said:
I can't wait to hear Flannagan after this one:

" If....if....if......the dog had eaten the equipment, you wouldn't be thinking that now. Would CHA'?''
Click to expand...
I've been expecting him to involve Kenya at some point... After the security, the chef, why not the dog ?
 
The DA and the witness are treating Murray's words like they were all true. This IMO forces Murray or his lawyers to admit that they were lies. And that looks real bad ESP since his lawyer was sitting right next to him
 
I just want to say one more thing about Steinberg, did you all see the look he gave Murray....with a smile on his face, it was a Got ya scumbag look.
Flanagan has had all night to get his questions ready for Kamagar, I think he will focus on addict aspect, I hope the witness can hold up to Flanagans confused mind.
 
rita.gibson said:
I just want to say one more thing about Steinberg, did you all see the look he gave Murray....with a smile on his face, it was a Got ya scumbag look.
Flanagan has had all night to get his questions ready for Kamagar, I think he will focus on addict aspect, I hope the witness can hold up to Flanagans confused mind.
Click to expand...

This guy is quadruple Board-certified..I think he can hold up against pretty much anything!
My only worry is that he speaks quite quickly and doesn't really simplify his language very much...I hope that the non-medically savvy members of the jury are managing to take in everything he says.


...and yes, I agree with S having a 'got ya' look...but I also worried a bit that the jury might think he was being a bit over-pleased with himself. I was a bit discomfited by the perma-smile...made me feel uncomfortable when the trial is about a man's death.
 
ouch i see the witness talked about insomnia that could be caused by withdrawling from a drug. u know flanagan is gonna jump on that
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Did i pick up from flannagan that they are now backing away from murray being away from mj for just 2 mins, or was being out of the room for 20 mins just one of the hypotheticals flannagan threw out? i got confused, which was perhaps flannagan's intention.

I'm really not sure how the defence are going to get round the 911 issue. I have a really vague recollection early in the trial the defence asking the security if they would allow the police in through the gates and can't remember what was said. But this would just mean murray making two calls, 911 and to security or one call to security to call 911.
Click to expand...

They have to back up from the "2 minutes" because Rogers and Steinberg said it was improbable that Michael could wake up , become alert enough to administer himself drugs. Furthermore both Steinberg and Senneff said if it was that recent and 911 was immediately called Michael could have been revived with no brain damage.

So in order to support self administration and remove the need to call for 911 they need to give a longer period - a period that Michael could have waken up, become alert, took the drugs, and go into a respiratory arrest, and that his heart stops and he dies. They need to argue that when Murray came it was too late and it would make no difference to call 911.

Still it would leave why he left Michael alone, why he left the drugs at arm reach and why he lied to explain. And you can see prosecution asking this hypothetical to multiple witnesses if it would account to gross negligence. Very similar to T-Mez and even TMZ's story today I think Murray might have cornered himself with that interview with detectives.
 
Justthefacts said:
The DA and the witness are treating Murray's words like they were all true. This IMO forces Murray or his lawyers to admit that they were lies. And that looks real bad ESP since his lawyer was sitting right next to him
Click to expand...

They did admit Murray lied. Fran all but said that Murray was out of the room for more than 2 minutes and Michael was dead when Murray did found him where in his police statement, he clearly said that Michael was warm, had a pulse after he checked it, and it happened recently.

If the defense is going to say he was in 'denial' about Michael being dead, how do you explain him checking his pulse and finding the heart was still beating? Once you admit that your clinic lied for whatever reason, it brings everything into question. Such as, how can you trust this guy about the time each drug was given and the amount? At the end, the DA has to hammer this home because the bunk of the defense's case is based on Murray's words alone.
 
ivy said:
They have to back up from the "2 minutes" because Rogers and Steinberg said it was improbable that Michael could wake up , become alert enough to administer himself drugs. Furthermore both Steinberg and Senneff said if it was that recent and 911 was immediately called Michael could have been revived with no brain damage.

So in order to support self administration and remove the need to call for 911 they need to give a longer period - a period that Michael could have waken up, become alert, took the drugs, and go into a respiratory arrest, and that his heart stops and he dies. They need to argue that when Murray came it was too late and it would make no difference to call 911.

Still it would leave why he left Michael alone, why he left the drugs at arm reach and why he lied to explain. And you can see prosecution asking this hypothetical to multiple witnesses if it would account to gross negligence. Very similar to T-Mez and even TMZ's story today I think Murray might have cornered himself with that interview with detectives.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that Murray also stated that Michael had a pulse (can't remember the exect medical term) and therfore could have been saved, are they going to say he made a mistake about that as well.
 
What pisses me off is that Michael would have lived if 911 was called. Help was only 4 mins away!!!

Right now I think Muarry should simply tell the prosecution that he does not want to go ahead and plead guilty. The only thing the defense is going to do now is try to dirty up Michael. They cannot get around the neglect which this case is all about. All Muarry's team is doing is keeping the media entertained at the expense of Michael.
 
Justthefacts said:
It was up to Murray to find out if it were true. And no matter what he didn't
Click to expand...

Right on point again Just.

The sleep expert clearly said that one need a 'full' discloser of the patient's medical history before treatment can even be consider. The fact that Michael was supposedly not upfront to Murray about what he was taking from the beginning should had been a red flag. Once he found out what Michael wanted he should had either said no or gave other options.

The minute he suspected that Michael may or had formed an addict, he should had stopped care immediately, there's no excuse for that.
 
And like the guy said ESP since he said he saw IV marks on Michael and that Michael's veins were a mess that should have shot up a big red flag
 
Ramona122003 said:
They did admit Murray lied. Fran all but said that Murray was out of the room for more than 2 minutes and Michael was dead when Murray did found him where in his police statement, he clearly said that Michael was warm, had a pulse after he checked it, and it happened recently.

If the defense is going to say he was in 'denial' about Michael being dead, how do you explain him checking his pulse and finding the heart was still beating? Once you admit that your clinic lied for whatever reason, it brings everything into question. Such as, how can you trust this guy about the time each drug was given and the amount? At the end, the DA has to hammer this home because the bunk of the defense's case is based on Murray's words alone.
Click to expand...

Exactly! The creditibility of Conrad Murray is seriously impaired. He wasn't trueful to the security guys or the medics or the emergency room doctors or the police. The self-injecting theory and the pill swallowing theory are came up by the defense. At this point, the jury has a pretty good idea whether to trust anything coming out from Murray's mouth.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
ouch i see the witness talked about insomnia that could be caused by withdrawling from a drug. u know flanagan is gonna jump on that
Click to expand...

The Prosecutor can show that Michael had this since he lived with his mom. This is no Klien related insomnia issue. A pity it is not the pros role to show that Michael was not an addict at the time of death. Now we have to live with the media and Muarry's claim that Michael is an addict.

I would like to see the pros offer a reason for the medicine in Michael's stomach as well. The coroner did give a reason in the report, but I cannot remember him saying anything about it on the stand.
 
LastTear said:
Don't forget that Murray also stated that Michael had a pulse (can't remember the exect medical term) and therfore could have been saved, are they going to say he made a mistake about that as well.
Click to expand...

see what Ramona wrote

Ramona122003 said:
They did admit Murray lied. Fran all but said that Murray was out of the room for more than 2 minutes and Michael was dead when Murray did found him where in his police statement, he clearly said that Michael was warm, had a pulse after he checked it, and it happened recently.

If the defense is going to say he was in 'denial' about Michael being dead, how do you explain him checking his pulse and finding the heart was still beating? Once you admit that your clinic lied for whatever reason, it brings everything into question. Such as, how can you trust this guy about the time each drug was given and the amount? At the end, the DA has to hammer this home because the bunk of the defense's case is based on Murray's words alone.
Click to expand...

I agree. The only "logical" defense would be to say Murray was out of room for 45-50 minutes making calls, came and saw Michael dead, panicked, wasn't thinking straight (Flanagan asked it yesderday that he was in an emergency situation), and was denial in regards to MJ's death. Cooper and Nyguen testified to his denial. Paramedics and ER doctors all believed MJ to be dead but yet continued efforts based on Murray's requests. Paramedics and ER doctors all testified to not feeling a pulse so perhaps Murray was mistaken in thinking he felt a pulse.

so if I was defense that would be the "logical" argument.

Still it would leave leaving Michael unmonitored for a long time with drugs lying around and lying to everyone about what happened.
 
^ No matter the angle of the story, up untill now it always comes back to the same conclusion: Murray messed up.
 
This is no Klien related insomnia issue. A pity it is not the pros role to show that Michael was not an addict at the time of death. Now we have to live with the media and Muarry's claim that Michael is an addict.
Click to expand...
the pros mentioned they had some addict expert in a motion according to some article from a while back. if thats the case maybe they will be used during the rebuttal stage as we know thats all murrays defence is gonna be
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top