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Murray's manslaughter charge hangs on voicemail evidence

There is so much we do not know. I have no facts about whether Murray was or was not "framed," and neither does anyone else here. The crime-scene was not secured until that evening, which amounts to no crime-scene at all? Therefore, the "evidence" is largely circumstantial. In terms of FACTS, we do not really know WHO "cleaned up the crime-scene." We can assume that it was Murray, but we really do not know.
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God , I said before anyone came ALVAREZ WAS THERE , BEFORE ANYONE CAME THE PARAMEDICS WERE THERE , SO IF THERE WAS NO IV ATTACHED TO MJ , OR THERE WAS NO IV BAG , IV TUBE , HOW COULD MURRAY CLAIM LATER HE LEFT THEM THERE AND SOMEONE CAME LATER AND REMOVED THEM ?

ALVAREZ ALVAREZ ALVAREZ , AND THE PARAMEDICS .

See above. We don't really know who cleaned up the crime-scene. There are a multitude of people who could have come and gone. Because of that, regardless of how much we discuss it, the physical evidence is likely not admissible in court, or at least, it can be questioned? The LAPD should have secured the crime-scene immediately, but they did not.
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SEE ABOVE , ALVAREZ AND PARAMEDICS =======ADMISSIBLE
 
Forgive me for sounding ignorant here..but there was NO IV of any kind attached to Michael..?
 
souldreamer7 said:
Forgive me for sounding ignorant here..but there was NO IV of any kind attached to Michael..?
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Well, it would appear there was an IV in his outer calf at some point (or down around near his ankle...I can't remember exactly) but it was pulled out and placed in the doctors bag which was found I believe in a closet in another room.

There was a central IV line put in his left neck by the EMT or Murray when they arrived. They did not say who put it in.
 
Beachlover said:
Well, it would appear there was an IV in his outer calf at some point (or down around near his ankle...I can't remember exactly) but it was pulled out and placed in the doctors bag which was found I believe in a closet in another room.

There was a central IV line put in his left neck by the EMT or Murray when they arrived. They did not say who put it in.
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ok..I read the autospy etc. but I must've over looked a couple of 'things' I guess easy to miss them when there's so much to read through..yet,there's so much that we don't have acess to read through. thanks for replying.
 
The tubing was found in the doctors bag and the contents are listed on the bottom of the sheet where the drugs are found. I would have to look through it again to find where they say the IV line was but I know they determined it was too difficult for Michael to have used it himself, so maybe in the Anesthesiologists report.
 
Well, it would appear there was an IV in his outer calf at some point (or down around near his ankle...I can't remember exactly) but it was pulled out and placed in the doctors bag which was found I believe in a closet in another room.
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why are things like this not a charge in itself. theres no other reason for this other than he was covering things up. and what was happening to mj while he was doing this. he was either gone which shows that all the calling for help cpr was also fake and staged and if mj was still here it shows he was more intrested in covering things up then performing cpr. which imo is murder. i wish someone wuld pull the D.A on this. not like they will talk till after a trial though. but the whole thing stinks.
 
i begin to seriosuly doubt murray ever meant to sedate mj with propofol for the whole night. if it's true he gave propofol via a bolus shot and not by iv, and unless he meant to give repeated bolus shots every 10min for 8 hours to keep him sedated (which seems unlikely), the propofol bolus shot was there only for show bc this was the drug mj was asking for.

that no propofol was found in the long iv tube, that murray didnt have the equipment ready used for propofol longtime sedation the way its done in an icu, that he didnt employ a nurse to work with him in shifts to watch over mj while he was under the influence of this drug, all this tells murray never meant to use propofol to sedate mj for a prolonged period of time.

the "real job" to keep mj sedated was to be done by another drug, lorazepam obviously. a lorazepam bolus shot keeps a patient sedated for at least an hour or two from what i get. and lorazepam was found in mj's blood, but not in his liver or urine which means murray injected it not long before mj died (or is there another reason why it wouldnt show in the liver?)

lorazepam is a very addictive substance. to give this substance repeatedly to a chronic insomniac would be highly irresponsible on murray's part imo. and was mj even aware of this? did he know he was given a bolus shot of propofol to be complimented by a shot of lorazepam?

wasn't the whole point about taking a hospital drug like propofol (and employ a highly paid cardiologist like murray to give this drug under controlled conditions) to AVOID using addictive, tolerance building drugs like lorazepam?

why bother with a propofol bolus shot for LONGTIME sedation if you give a lorazepam injection? to me this is a key question which should be given a good deal of scrutiny during trial.
 
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why are things like this not a charge in itself. theres no other reason for this other than he was covering things up
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i dont understand this either. maybe they cannot prove it or are uncertain on the quality of their evidence and first want to present their case to a judge? possibly charges will be added during prelim. i hope so
 
elusive moonwalker said:
why are things like this not a charge in itself. theres no other reason for this other than he was covering things up. and what was happening to mj while he was doing this. he was either gone which shows that all the calling for help cpr was also fake and staged and if mj was still here it shows he was more intrested in covering things up then performing cpr. which imo is murder. i wish someone wuld pull the D.A on this. not like they will talk till after a trial though. but the whole thing stinks.
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I agree, it stinks. How can that not be an added charge? Covering up what you've done..eugh it's just something a weasel would do. I'm sick of the treatment he's getting.
 
possibly charges will be added during prelim. i hope so
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thats are only hope. but u know what will happen. it wont even get mentioned during a trial let alone used against him
 
elusive moonwalker said:
thats are only hope. but u know what will happen. it wont even get mentioned during a trial let alone used against him
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I really think you are wrong. This is the whole case for the DA.

There is no manslaughter if they can't prove he was totally negligent. I am afraid though that its going to be very hard to convince 12 people of this when you have so many people out there feeding the story that MJ was a drug addict in need of intervention. I wish that would just stop already.

All this talk about 'others' being involved isn't helping either. It all makes things look like a bunch of nutters are involved here and doesn't make things look very credible.
 
I really think you are wrong. This is the whole case for the DA.

There is no manslaughter if they can't prove he was totally negligent.
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thats what im hoping but it doenst help with obviously not really knowing the law and what comes under what. but surely covering up a crime scene is more than just showing negligence in relation to a death? isnt it a seperate charge.what happens in a murder case where they cover up the crime scene? i guess that comes under the whole murder charge?. so in that sense yeah maybe it just comes under MS. i dunno!
 
but surely covering up a crime scene is more than just showing negligence in relation to a death? isnt it a seperate charge.
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in a traffic accident, if someone is doing a hit-and-run, covers up, doesnt help the victim, doesnt call for help, its a more severe charge. same should be the case here imo. i can only imagine they are unsure of their evidence and dont want to discredit their case by adding on stuff they cant really prove. or at least want to show it to a judge for review first.

it wont even get mentioned during a trial
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i think it will, how can it not? all these things, fireplaces turned up in june, no iv bag was attached, propofol and iv equip was found in a bag hidden in a closet the next room, he performed cpr on a bed, he didnt call 911 right away, the phone calls, he didnt mention propofol when paramedics arrived... these things will be part of the trial
 
^^^
Multiple charges are usually applied. They don't normally lump everything into one unless they don't have the evidence of some sort to prove it.

Look at MJ's trial he had multiple charges some were thrown out but they piled so much on to see what would stick. I don't know what direction the DA is going with this. Outside looking in I see other charges. I've seen the DA put a bunch of mess on before. Right now I am puzzled why don't have more charges.
 
His story just keeps on changing, and now he claims he made a mistake with his timing. Its a cover up plain and simple, he's only desperate to cover his own ass.
 
Beachlover said:
I really think you are wrong. This is the whole case for the DA.

There is no manslaughter if they can't prove he was totally negligent. I am afraid though that its going to be very hard to convince 12 people of this when you have so many people out there feeding the story that MJ was a drug addict in need of intervention. I wish that would just stop already.

All this talk about 'others' being involved isn't helping either. It all makes things look like a bunch of nutters are involved here and doesn't make things look very credible.
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I think the "Michael was a drug-addict" story stopped in its tracks when no opiates were found in his system. Don't think this will be an issue.

I think it will be incredibly easy to prove that Murray was "totally negligent." He gave Michael a drug at HOME that should only be used in a hospital or clinic setting. And after that, he neglected to tell EMTs what he'd given Michael. I think the charges should have been even higher.

No one knows for sure if there were or were not "others" involved. Murray was the last doctor standing, and I'm sure he'll take the fall for this. If there were "others," that info might come out in a civil suit. No way to know at this point, though.

My opinion is that it will be very, very easy to convince twelve people that Murray was totally negligent.
 
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After everything that Murray didnt and did do will determine his fate, not 1 phone call. This is what the defence wants you to think.
 
xthunderx2 said:
I am as confused as you are about this.."Bob".....I find articles saying his name is "Bob Russell".......It just seems very odd that Murray pick this particular time and day to call "Bob"...also in which state does Bob live???,,,If Murray had a license to practice in 3 states...Bob...could live in anyone of them.....I think this phone call was a sign to someone of..ok..the job is done..
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Good point.
 
And whatever happened to patient client confidentiality when Murray is mentioning a clients name and discussing his test results?
 
Murray never said a word. The press probably contacted the patient or the patient contacted the press.
 
If the police had taken Murray's cell-phone, the number and time of the call to "Bob" would have been on it, and it would be easy to track down "Bob." How it came to be leaked, we do not know. Police will sometimes do that as a strategic move.

The timing of that call is pivotal. Which is another reason why I think the police, themselves, leaked it.
 
Beachlover said:
If a death such as this is planned in advance by such a large group of people who have been planning this for years as you have said, the simple way of telling someone information is to buy another cell phone just for that purpose and throw it away after the job is complete.

Not to be stupid enough to use your own cell phone and call some person and give a message in code.
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Funny you should mention this because at the begging when Michael First passed The LAPD and DA thought Murray was using A Say now Phone plan...Which is a throw away prepaid kind of phone plan. GO Figure?
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
Murray was discussing test results from memory wasnt he? It was Murray on the phone. Thats the whole point to this thread so he did say something.

And why the heck are you always on the defense for Murray? Its sickening really.:puke:
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I think Beachlover meant that CM never talked "publically" about the phone call, not that he never made the phone call. Why in the world is that considered defending him?
 
Victoria83 said:
If the police had taken Murray's cell-phone, the number and time of the call to "Bob" would have been on it, and it would be easy to track down "Bob." How it came to be leaked, we do not know. Police will sometimes do that as a strategic move.

The timing of that call is pivotal. Which is another reason why I think the police, themselves, leaked it.
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Murray's team leaked it to try and forum an alibi for the time frame.
 
bgz said:
I think Beachlover meant that CM never talked "publically" about the phone call, not that he never made the phone call. Why in the world is that considered defending him?
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Most of what that member says suspiciously defends others like Murray and never Michael. Very see through by the majority of the board who dont want to get caught up in it and risk being banned which I understand.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
Most of what that member says suspiciously defends others like Murray and never Michael. Very see through by the majority of the board who dont want to get caught up in it and risk being banned which I understand.
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There was no defense on my part. There was a reference that Murray made this public. He had nothing to do with it.

I always defend Michael but I will also NOT nail someone to the cross with mis information. I'm sorry, but thats just not fair. If you are going to make false statements and accusations, then you should expect that someone might come along and call it for what it is.
 
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