Preliminary Hearing 6/1/11 Day Three. Discussion thread

[Milka]

Ok, this made me laugh, seriously!
Thanks for doing so!! In the middle of this nightmare, that was really good :flowers:

Some of the posts in the last couple of pages made me laugh too, I think we need that from time to time, and also - how can you not get sarcastic with all the details that are coming out? It's really hard reading all that ...

 

[Semih]

For a second, i thought about something different.

If they said, his body was cold, and he seemed dead for a while.
Perhaps something different happened.

Someone else was in mjs room!?
And when murray found jackson dead, he was simply shocked, and nervous. This would explain a bit his reaction.

Just imagine, you are MJs doctor and you found him dead.
You don't know what happened, and you simply can not explain it.
You get nervous... very nervous
You can't believe it! You try everything to get him back.

Well, I still can not explain to me, why he was not able to make a CPR, and had not the equipment. That is really strange!

But as I told you, I was just thinking;... trying to think to another direction.
Murray made a video message, said that he did not anything, which would led to death.
He showed up at forest lawn.

Just try to look at it from another side. When this would happen to YOU, and you simply don't know, why mj passed away.
And you just hope for the truth!

In a short way:
I have feeling, that there is another person (or more) involved.
There was a plan, to murder him on this night!!! This is my personal feeling on this.

I am not saying, that murray is innocent, but after these 3 preliminary hearings, it made me think to another direction.

Perhaps it sounds weird, because you all know more details. I dont know the timeline so well

just wanted to share my thoughts
i would be glad to know everyones opinion on this

 

[Ingelief]

the second doctor.. said this

Asked him what happened after he gave the medication. He told me that he later found the patient not breathing. Asked him when he found the patient not breathing. He said he did not know the time.

HEre he says he found michael not breathing thats not i saw the arrest... ppfff that means the first doctor he met first he told her i saw it the second doctor comes later and he says this..

 

[Ingelief]

what is a balloon pomp?

 

[PCR]

Some of the posts in the last couple of pages made me laugh too, I think we need that from time to time, and also - how can you not get sarcastic with all the details that are coming out? It's really hard reading all that ...

Yes, you are totally right.
I don't know about you all, but I am mentally, physically and emotionally exhausted. While following all the updates here and in the different pages, I do may best to keep updated my friends in Chile, translating from English into Spanish, while coping with the info and really trying hard not to make my personal remarks there. I tell you: I have never typed so many times the words "death", "when he was dead" or "he was already dead", and NEVER connect to Michael Jackson. It really hurts and has a deep impact on one's heart.

So I must really get some sleep. Thanks so much for being here today, for all the info, the insight, the comments, the jokes yes and the reliable updates from court.

This is but the beginning, so let's keep together, please :hug:

 

[Justthefacts]

For a second, i thought about something different.

If they said, his body was cold, and he seemed dead for a while.
Perhaps something different happened.

Someone else was in mjs room!?
And when murray found jackson dead, he was simply shocked, and nervous. This would explain a bit his reaction.

Just imagine, you are MJs doctor and you found him dead.
You don't know what happened, and you simply can not explain it.
You get nervous... very nervous
You can't believe it! You try everything to get him back.

Well, I still can not explain to me, why he was not able to make a CPR, and had not the equipment. That is really strange!

But as I told you, I was just thinking;... trying to think to another direction.
Murray made a video message, said that he did not anything, which would led to death.
He showed up at forest lawn.

Just try to look at it from another side. When this would happen to YOU, and you simply don't know, why mj passed away.
And you just hope for the truth!

In a short way:
I have feeling, that there is another person (or more) involved.
There was a plan, to murder him on this night!!! This is my personal feeling on this.

I am not saying, that murray is innocent, but after these 3 preliminary hearings, it made me think to another direction. Think about it!

i would be glad to know everyones opinion on this

:doh::smilerolleyes::bugeyed is what I think

 

[Semih]

Well, probably it sounds weird, because you all know more details. I dont know the timeline so well

just wanted to share my thoughts on that moment

 

[chanel05]

probably they were having phone sex, not of anyone's business.

please dont make me throw up.... ewwww

 

[PrincessMichaela]

probably they were having phone sex, not of anyone's business.

Oh My God. If that was found to be true - while he was supposed to be making sure Michael stayed alive - I would personally, all four feet eleven inches of me, hunt down all six feet five inches of him and do things I cannot say because I don't think death threats are allowed on this board.

 

[Ingelief]

time to go to bed... 2.18 am here..

good night everybody and thx for al the updates and posts

big huges to every sad person

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

somewhere today, i heard/read that the second paramedic said that when they arrived mj was on the bed & they had to get him on the floor..

soo... murray didn't move him to the floor even when 911 operator advised it?

can anyone confirm that? or correct it?

 

[Milka]

Yes, you are totally right.
I don't know about you all, but I am mentally, physically and emotionally exhausted. While following all the updates here and in the different pages, I do may best to keep updated my friends in Chile, translating from English into Spanish, while coping with the info and really trying hard not to make my personal remarks there. I tell you: I have never typed so many times the words "death", "when he was dead" or "he was already dead", and NEVER connect to Michael Jackson. It really hurts and has a deep impact on one's heart.

Wow, on top of reading and posting you have to be an interpreter and say everything again in Spanish ... I'm just reading here and try to listen to UStream a bit, but that's breaking up a lot. But I know that I have to be careful, I'm reading everything but I avoid as much as possible to reply to certain posts, see the bolded part in the quote, I have to avoid replying or thinking too much about that (and the moment you reply, you have to think about it). The one time I replied to something in that context today, I needed to get away for at least a couple of minutes ...

 

[Asedora]

For a second, i thought about something different.

If they said, his body was cold, and he seemed dead for a while.
Perhaps something different happened.

Someone else was in mjs room!?
And when murray found jackson dead, he was simply shocked, and nervous. This would explain a bit his reaction.

Just imagine, you are MJs doctor and you found him dead.
You don't know what happened, and you simply can not explain it.
You get nervous... very nervous
You can't believe it! You try everything to get him back.

Well, I still can not explain to me, why he was not able to make a CPR, and had not the equipment. That is really strange!

But as I told you, I was just thinking;... trying to think to another direction.
Murray made a video message, said that he did not anything, which would led to death.
He showed up at forest lawn.

Just try to look at it from another side. When this would happen to YOU, and you simply don't know, why mj passed away.
And you just hope for the truth!

In a short way:
I have feeling, that there is another person (or more) involved.
There was a plan, to murder him on this night!!! This is my personal feeling on this.

I am not saying, that murray is innocent, but after these 3 preliminary hearings, it made me think to another direction.

Perhaps it sounds weird, because you all know more details. I dont know the timeline so well

just wanted to share my thoughts
i would be glad to know everyones opinion on this

OK.The bottom line. If Murray's defence will proof in court that Murray did not give MJ anything what would kill Michael Jackson it only means that this trial will go to a different directon, which is conspiracy. MJ died from a LETHAL dose of Propofol according to an autopsy report, which menas that somebody else gave it to him who was in that damn house. MJ was not able to inject himself. It is BS.
MJ was murdered and I hope it will be proven during the trial. I pray that real killers will go to jail, not just dr. Murray.

 

[CeyEntertainment]

The TRUTH has to come out

 

[riviera1992]

they were talking about the person on the other end. murray dropped the phone and the person could hear noises of what was going on

Yes, you're right. This was already discussed in a prior thread. Murray was talking to his girl friend when he noticed Michael in distress. Meaning he probably saw him with his mouth open and eyes wide open and looking as dead as a dornell. That's when Murray drop the phone and his girlfriend heard him doing his thing trying to revive Michael. It was already too late at that time. Michael was gone for too long. That's why Murray panicked so badly and did all this nonsense. He knew he'd fu*ked up so badly, he was probably in a daze and definately not thinking straight.

 

[Justthefacts]

why this conspiracy stuff still going on here?

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

what is a balloon pomp?

I don't know.. I googled 'balloon pump emergency room cardiac arrest' and information about a Intra-aortic Balloon Pump came up..(it is placed inside the aorta close to the heart - http://www.fda.gov/ucm/groups/fdagov-public/documents/image/ucm064550.gif).

Intraaortic balloon pumping (IABP) is a precious technique, used in the treatment of low cardiac output developed secondarily to depression of myocardial performance. Today IABP's success rate is high and it is a reliable technique if the decision is on time.

I have no idea if that's what they were talking about..

(ps. don't scroll down on google images if you search it.. there is a picture of an open chest with the operation being carried out you may not wanna see it..)

 

[summer]

I don't understand how of all the doctors Michael ended up with this person who I even refuse to call a doctor how can life be so unfair??

You'd be surprised what makes a person trust someone. Sometimes certain people trust a person who is male more than someone who is female and will think a male person is a better nurse/doctor than someone who is female. We have young doctors who are already head doctors and some parents start yelling at them to get their hands off of their child and to get a "real doctor" and not some "student"....and we have to explain to them that this is in fact a VERY good and very experienced doctor and actually also the one in charge....And I've had parents ask ME to do certain things that a DOCTOR is supposed to do...only because they like me and because their child didn't cry when I was doing something I had to do, like changing a bandage, giving a medicine, etc. And I have to tell them that I'm not allowed because it's a doctors responsibility to do what they asked me to do.

Sometimes people decide how "competent" you are based on gender, race, age, likability (sp?), etc...Sometimes it's depending on if you're doing exactly what THEY think should be done. We have had parents call us all incompetent and "quacks" and what not only because we wanted to start an i.v. and draw blood. Somehow some expect us to know what is wrong with the child without touching the child....so...if you do touch the child (as in stick a needle to draw blood or to give an i.v. drug), then you have no idea what you are doing according to some parents. Or if you don't immediately give the child antibiotics when the child has fever, no matter why the child has fever (like for example diarrhea), you have no idea about medicine....because "EVERYONE knows you need to take antibiotics when you have fever!!!"....according to some parents. Just as an example. :smilerolleyes: :lol:

So, why Michael chose to trust Murray...only he will know. Some trust people only because they know the person is a DOCTOR. Like my dad, when he had cancer...."But my DOCTOR said...." and I'd be like "But DAD.....are you SURE!!!"..."No my doctor said it's fine!!"..:no: And yes...it was my mom who found out my dad's doctor made a mistake and it was my mom who called and yelled at them to get them to do something about it!! But to my dad his doctors were like "Gods"....:no:

And this is the guy that was supposed to be compensated *how much* for his 'services'?

I mean, the hoax forum speculated once that Murray is an actor. I'm starting to think that because every first semester student seems to have more knowledge than that guy.

I'm seriously gripping my head how somebody with that lack of, shall we say-knowledge of time and date and address- knows how to acquire the license to practice in SEVERAL states. Amazing.

I've said it too almost from the beginning that it would NOT surprise me if it came out that Murray is in fact NOT a real doctor but someone who maybe went to medical school so he has enough knowledge to APPEAR like he knows what he's doing....but actually failed and never graduated from med school and just forged his license.

From what I understand summer - Murray said he felt a pulse while he and the EMTs were dealing with Michael at the house.

Someone (not sure who) felt there was a pulse when he was in the hospital.

Well, Murray was in the ER as well...with gloves on...hands on....So I bet it was him.

So MJ was sleeping like a baby from 10:40 am till some point between 11:51 -12:03 . He only woke up when Murray left the room , the SECOND Murray left the room MJ woke up , what a coincidence:smilerolleyes: when he wake up he did not call for Murray, he did not say where are you Dr.Murray, he grapped a vial and withdraw lidocaine , injected himself , then got another vial and withdraw propofol and again injected himself. He did all that within two minutes, not only that, within these two minutes the process of dying started ( perimortem wounds) .

Mike did all the above within two minutes? He must have been very worried and rapidly injecting because the very responsible and concerned Dr.Murray would comeback any minute and stop him from getting his 'fix' :smilerolleyes:

EXACTLY!!!! I'd like to see how many of the juror will buy THAT theory!!! And like I've said before...Murray is said to have insisted he ONLY gave Michael 25 mg of Propofol. So....if that amount knocked him out....HOW would Michael then be able to inject an amount WAY beyond that amount all by himself....?? Doesn't make sense! Wouldn't he then be knocked out by the time he had 25 mg in him?! So how would he be able to inject over HUNDRED milligrams all BY HIMSELF...without being knocked out half way in the process?? THAT is one of the things Murry's team will need to explain....And....if Murray says he gave more....then that prolongs the time the Propofol is working and makes it all the worse that he left Michael ALONE for two minutes. So even that theory won't help him either way....

dodgy or what? great memory funny that!

I KNOW!!!! I don't know of ANY doctor that would agree to tell you out of MEMORY what drugs EXACTLY some patient is getting...without looking at patient records!! That is pretty reckless because you could be mixing up patients!! Unless he only has like 2 patients he is treating. :scratch:But I think it has been established he has several patients. So that makes absolutely no sense and again shows how RECKLESS he is!! And isn't it such a "coincidence" that this doctor is calling from a "post-op room"..."ready to perform a procedure".....Huh?:scratch:If the person ís "post-op"....doesn't it mean he/she just had surgery....so they would have ALREADY needed to know BEFORE the surgery what drugs the patient was getting...not AFTER (post-op...post...AFTER). That makes no sense.....:scratch:And was about to perform a procedure...oh really...how convenient...I'd like to know what kind. One in which you just happen to use Propofol....right? Murray did not happen to ask you about Propofol by any chance....in fact...the purpouse of the whole call was to answer Murray's questions about Propofol, etc...wasn't it?! Bet it was!! To know the meds..POST-OP....SUUURRREEE!!! :doh: What kind of QUACKS are all these doctors? If it's POST-OP....just look at teh damn CHARTS, you idiot? You ask what meds a patient is taking PRIOR to surgery...not AFTERWARDS....:doh: They should call that person to the stand. That call is very interesting...I'd like to know more! -_-

It's surprising that he even had a cell phone (or two), considering how old-fashioned he was, medical equipment from a hundred years ago, no watches, and navigating with the "turn left at big oak tree, drive for 2 minutes and then turn right at the palm tree" method. One would think he'd communicate via smoke signals.

:toofunny: :toofunny: It's so tragic it's becoming to sound absolutely comical....like...."Is this guy for real?!" :doh:

Okay maybe this is not that a big deal but I thought Murray was on his phone with Nicole Alvarez, then realized MJ was not breathing and dropped the phone.

So, it was not Nicole, but he was on the phone with someone named Saday? He called Nicole in the ambulance.

I thought he called Nicole Alvarez as well...Didn't she testify that she heard the phone drop...? Then again...who can keep up with all these women Murray has...ex-wife....wife....girlfriend....Too many for me to keep up with.

Well duh: he was taking notes, cause obviously he heard loads and loads of things he never heard about before, I think he thought he was in a classroom
Where the h*ll did this guy get his medical license, what a joke

Yeah, he was taking notes from Dr. Cooper and that other ER doctor about what doses to give and how.....you know...for next time...

 

[Semih]

why this conspiracy stuff still going on here?

well, i wouldnt say its conspiracy.
i just wanted to share my thoughts. they are not facts

but on that moment, i was just thinkin to another direction and wanted to share it with everyone

 

[8701girl]

So, why Michael chose to trust Murray...only he will know. Some trust people only because they know the person is a DOCTOR. Like my dad, when he had cancer...."But my DOCTOR said...." and I'd be like "But DAD.....are you SURE!!!"..."No my doctor said it's fine!!"..:no: And yes...it was my mom who found out my dad's doctor made a mistake and it was my mom who called and yelled at them to get them to do something about it!! But to my dad his doctors were like "Gods"....:no:

I think maybe someone in michael's camp knew of conrad murray and told michael bout it. This person was probably reasureing michael is a good doctor.....some "good doctor he turned out 2 be!! :rant:

 

[summer]

For a second, i thought about something different.

If they said, his body was cold, and he seemed dead for a while.
Perhaps something different happened.

Someone else was in mjs room!?
And when murray found jackson dead, he was simply shocked, and nervous. This would explain a bit his reaction.

Just imagine, you are MJs doctor and you found him dead.
You don't know what happened, and you simply can not explain it.
You get nervous... very nervous
You can't believe it! You try everything to get him back.

Well, I still can not explain to me, why he was not able to make a CPR, and had not the equipment. That is really strange!

But as I told you, I was just thinking;... trying to think to another direction.
Murray made a video message, said that he did not anything, which would led to death.
He showed up at forest lawn.

Just try to look at it from another side. When this would happen to YOU, and you simply don't know, why mj passed away.
And you just hope for the truth!

In a short way:
I have feeling, that there is another person (or more) involved.
There was a plan, to murder him on this night!!! This is my personal feeling on this.

I am not saying, that murray is innocent, but after these 3 preliminary hearings, it made me think to another direction.

Perhaps it sounds weird, because you all know more details. I dont know the timeline so well

just wanted to share my thoughts
i would be glad to know everyones opinion on this

The only way that would work would be for Murray to admit he was away longer than 2 minutes. Let's not forget the CAUSE of death....it was PROPOFOL.....and no one was allowed to go upstairs except MJ's kids and Murray....how would anyone KNOW about the Propofol in the first place. And someone would have needed to be hiding somewhere right beside the door all night and all day to wait for Murray to come out and they would have needed to go in the SECOND Murray wet out...they would have known where the Propofol is...they would have needed to know how it works...they would have needed to inject it....then RUN...without anyone noticing. Highly unlikely. And if Murray admits he was out of the room LONGER than 2 minutes...that doesn't help him because he will admit to neglecting MJ which will then have him admit he is guilty. Besides, we already know Murray had NONE of the equipment or drugs he was supposed to have....No matter how you look at it, the medical evidence all point to Murray's incompetence and reckless behaviour.

One can try to make up theories but really....all point to Murray. And if there was anyone there "wanting" to kill Michael and was a so called "hired gun"....then it was Murray. And he did his job pretty well. Except that I think he was hoping no one would find out about Propofol and you can speculate that maybe that's why he tried to wait as long as he could....because he was hoping the Propofol would be out of MJ's system by then and not found....:doh: Who knows....intentional or not intentional...fact is....it was Murray's reckless behaviour that killed MJ.

somewhere today, i heard/read that the second paramedic said that when they arrived mj was on the bed & they had to get him on the floor..

soo... murray didn't move him to the floor even when 911 operator advised it?

can anyone confirm that? or correct it?

He corrected that right away and said that MJ was on the floor.

Yes, you're right. This was already discussed in a prior thread. Murray was talking to his girl friend when he noticed Michael in distress. Meaning he probably saw him with his mouth open and eyes wide open and looking as dead as a dornell. That's when Murray drop the phone and his girlfriend heard him doing his thing trying to revive Michael. It was already too late at that time. Michael was gone for too long. That's why Murray panicked so badly and did all this nonsense. He knew he'd fu*ked up so badly, he was probably in a daze and definately not thinking straight.

Try to keep up people. A lot of this info has already been discussed before. Please search the forum before repeating the same questions. Like the mods say; we all want to keep up on the info coming out and some of us don't have much time to read through pages and pages every day.

Thanks.

I agree....I think that is most likely why he panicked...because he knew he had left MJ alone for too long.

 

[Ingelief]

im sorry but isnt it a fact now that he didnt call his girlfriend before in the ambulance? of the testimony today?

because that means if she said that back then she lied for him

 

[ivy]

im sorry but isnt it a fact now that he didnt call his girlfriend before in the ambulance? of the testimony today?

because that means if she said that back then she lied for him

that "on the phone with girlfriend" was TMZ story. They might have got it wrong.

 

[GinnyJackson]

This is what i think they are talking about. A CPR Oxygen Resuscitator Mask Bag

This is the one i have

You attach the ambubag to the slot there and you pump it with your hand. it helps the person breath

 

[The Lost Child]

im sorry but isnt it a fact now that he didnt call his girlfriend before in the ambulance? of the testimony today?

because that means if she said that back then she lied for him

this story about a call with his girlfriend was posted by tmz, it doesn't have to be accurate. Guess we'll know during next testimonies.
Btw - random:
LaToya tweeted:
latoyajackson Latoya Jackson
Hello all! I really want 2 thank U all for your love & support during this preliminary trial. Today was a very interesting day. More later!

Edit:
Ivy, :huggy: it seems we were thinking the same abt tmz. Btw: thank you for all your updates :flowers:

 

[StacyJ]

what was so interesting about it? Is LaToya just as heartbroken as we are?

 

[GinnyJackson]

what was so interesting about it? Is LaToya just as heartbroken as we are?

id hope so... She is his sister after all.

 

[Soundmind]

Let's focus on the doctor's testimony today please

Asks which situations propofol is used. Amout used for procedural sedation, witness asks back? Every patient is a little bit different. Mentions MJ’s weight 136 pounds, and asks how much for that weight. (Generally) 60 mg is what she usually starts with. Asked if that is a little conservative.

In someone of MJ's weight 60mg could produce sedation. Sometimes it happened

.

Asks about 25 mg. Generally 60 mg would last 10 to 20 minutes. You wouldn’t expect a sedation more than 5-10 minutes on only 25 mg. “I don’t know how long that dose would last. A dose usually takes 20-30 minutes to wear off.” Everyone’s different.

60mg generally lasts 10 to 20 minutes
Flagan made his calculations and figured out less than half of that amount (25 mg) would 5 to 10 mintues ( not true by the way)
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><o></o>
<o></o>
Her reply:<o></o>

I wouldn’t know why someone would use that amout

Exactly, she already said she would START with 60mg to INDUCE sleep, so what was Murray trying to achieve when he decided to inject ONLY 25mg?what was the point of only injecting 25mg? 25 was not enough to induce sedation.
<o></o>
<o></o>
<o></o>

A dose usually takes 20-30 minutes to wear off.”

I don't think she was referring to 25mg dose. She already said a higher dose 60mg would last between 10 to 20 mintutes.
<o></o>

Flagan : Talking about 25 mg infusion over a 3 to 4 minutes of time. Her answer: I would not expect... ???

<o></o>
<o></o>See , as we expected, they still insist it was an infusion not injection.

 

[Milka]

Look at post #5 here:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101580

Senneff:

- He inserts ET tube and gives air to MJ by pumping a hand pump. He sees an Oxygen tank and nasal canula (tubing that goes around the nose and connected to an Oxygen tank).

That's still at the house.

--------------------------

And look at the first post here on this page:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101580&page=2

Dr. Thao Nguyen:

- She does the balloon pump although she thinks it wouldn't work based on everything done already. An agreement was made with Dr. Murray that if the balloon pump failed, then they would call the time of death.

That's at the emergency room. So I guess both pumps mentioned in here were used.

 

[xthunderx2]

what was so interesting about it? Is LaToya just as heartbroken as we are?

I think she is just hiding it a whole lot better than we are...who knows with LaToya.