Latest on MJJC

is propofol a red herring?

angelofhope

Proud Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Messages
1,645
Points
48
Hello
I was thinking in bed last night that the whole propofol thing does not make the least bit of sense at all. We have all been fed this line about Michael knowing and taking propofol before but we have no concrete evidence of this whatsoever. It is all based on hearsay. I was thinking that I have been guilty of taken the above as true. I realise it is like 2005 all over again. Nobody has seems to have witnessed Michael take propofol outside a hospital at all nevermind at all. The idea of Conrad Murray supposedly injecting MJ night after night just dosen't ring true of Michael. Could it be possible Michael was duped into having it given to him? Could he thought he was being re-hydrated and only benzos were in the line?
Was he tricked/misinformed into using propofol? I am rambling now but does any of this make sense? The more I think about this the more questions I have.
 
I think there are many unanswered questions but personally I don't doubt that Michael was using propofol as a sleep aid. Let's just hope the truth (whatever it is) comes out in court. :)
 
Don't know. But, there is NO concrete proof or testimony, under oath, that Michael was given this before. . . even though there has been a lot of effort to make us THINK that he had been. Part of that "effort" was Nurse Lee's blabbering (and then where did she GO? Is she on the witness list, or not?)

Since it leaves the body quickly, do we really know? I think we do not. Not for sure. (Unless it would show up in hair analysis? But, we've not seen any hair analysis results.)

But, how does one explain the many cases of propofol Murray bought? Seriously? HOW?
 
Thought this was interesting. I truly wasn't sure if propofol would show up in hair analysis.. Now I'm really anxious to see the results.

"Determination of chronic abuse of the anaesthetic agents midazolam and propofol as demonstrated by hair analysis

A 44-year-old female nurse in a department of anesthesiology was found dead at home. An empty bottle of Hypnovel (midazolam 5 mg/5 ml) and a hypodermic syringe were found near the corpse. The nurse was a known abuser of anaesthetic agents for many years. .. Segmental analysis of a 6-cm-long hair strand revealed the presence of midazolam and propofol in each 2-cm-long segment. Repetitive consumption of the two anaesthetic agents during the last 6 months before the death was therefore demonstrated. .."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11924712
 
cinzia said:
Thought this was interesting. I truly wasn't sure if propofol would show up in hair analysis.. Now I'm really anxious to see the results.

"Determination of chronic abuse of the anaesthetic agents midazolam and propofol as demonstrated by hair analysis

A 44-year-old female nurse in a department of anesthesiology was found dead at home. An empty bottle of Hypnovel (midazolam 5 mg/5 ml) and a hypodermic syringe were found near the corpse. The nurse was a known abuser of anaesthetic agents for many years. .. Segmental analysis of a 6-cm-long hair strand revealed the presence of midazolam and propofol in each 2-cm-long segment. Repetitive consumption of the two anaesthetic agents during the last 6 months before the death was therefore demonstrated. .."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11924712
Click to expand...


VERY interesting. So, the truth is out there, and the hair-sample analysis would reveal it. :timer:
 
Autumn II said:
Don't know. But, there is NO concrete proof or testimony, under oath, that Michael was given this before. . . even though there has been a lot of effort to make us THINK that he had been. Part of that "effort" was Nurse Lee's blabbering (and then where did she GO? Is she on the witness list, or not?)

Since it leaves the body quickly, do we really know? I think we do not. Not for sure. (Unless it would show up in hair analysis? But, we've not seen any hair analysis results.)

But, how does one explain the many cases of propofol Murray bought? Seriously? HOW?
Click to expand...


Don't forget Dr. Klein on LKL, so it wasn't just Lee. Klein is a proven liar, but parts of what he says could be true. That being said, the propofol imo is one of his lies.

KING: Yes, but how would you buy Diprivan?

KLEIN: Well, you can get it from an anesthesiologist.

KING: But he'd have to come to your house?

Would you do it in your house?

KLEIN: No, certainly not, unless you have an anesthesiologist administering it to you.

There are certain things that you have to not do. And the one thing you have to know is what you're doing with medication. And medicine isn't something casual. I mean I developed, you know, certain things in my life -- not a lot, but the way -- the sites that use botox on certain injectable fillers. And I mean that's my life. And I mean the big thing that I see is you see so many people giving botox parties and things like this. And this makes no sense because this is just medicine.

KING: I don't talk about that.

All right, did Michael tell you he used Diprivan?

KLEIN: I knew at one point that he was using Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany. And so he was using it, with an anesthesiologist, to go to sleep at night. And I told him he was absolutely insane. I said you have to understand that this drug, you can't repeatedly take. Because what happens with narcotics, no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them.
 
Last edited:
jrsfan said:
I said you have to understand that this drug, you can't repeatedly take. Because what happens with narcotics, no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them.
Click to expand...

Is this man a complete fool? Propofol isn't a narcotic, and I've never heard it said one can build up a tolerance to it.

Next?
 
That Klein dude is... I'll refrain from expletives.. How is propofol a narcotic? And how does he hazardously makes the claim that Michael took the anesthetic (for that's what it is, not narcotic...0..0) repeatedly? How many Germany shows did Michael give?. If he used it at all was because he had tried everything else, and it didn't work, like he told Cherylin Lee. And he had an anesthesist, at least, making sure he was safe, which didn't obviously happen in Murray's case, 'cause, his money-hungry person most likely convinced a vulnerable, sleep-deprived trusting Michael that it was safe. ... And by his Klein's words, he's saying basically that Michael used it, most likely, during the HIStory concert(s) in Germany, but he doesn't say he also used it on some other occasion. Could've used it some other time during that History tour, for sleep, I'm not to know and don't care, he benefited from the proper monitoring and equipment and wasn't let to die like a dog, which was what Murray did.

Klein is clueless and his mouth is talking independently from him. Terrible witness if/when he gets subpoenaed to testify. .. But maybe his inconsistence would prove beneficial for the prosecution, who knows?.. Either way, he's one unreliable dude.
 
Last edited:
At 2000 Neil Ratner (History tour doctor) was going through a lawsuit for insurance fraud (totally unrelated to MJ). At that lawsuit the the lawyers claimed Ratner was giving MJ inappropriate drugs and maybe narcotics. Although he never answered any question some people believe that as Ratner was an anesthesiologist his treatment included the likes of propofol. After Michael's death in 2009 in CNN 360 this was claimed. Again Ratner never answered to any questions.
 
Alma said:
If he used it at all was because he had tried everything else, and it didn't work, like he told Cherylin Lee.
Click to expand...

At this point, I'm believing ONLY what people have to say under oath. I have my doubts that Michael said anything remotely LIKE this to Cherlyn Lee. Is she on the witness list? If she testifies, then I'll give her some credibility. Her demeanor was VERY strange on those talk shows, IMHO. (I'm an anthropologist. Part of my research/teaching is non-verbal communication, i.e. body-language, etc.)
 
ivy said:
At 2000 Neil Ratner (History tour doctor) was going through a lawsuit for insurance fraud (totally unrelated to MJ). At that lawsuit the the lawyers claimed Ratner was giving MJ inappropriate drugs and maybe narcotics. Although he never answered any question some people believe that as Ratner was an anesthesiologist his treatment included the likes of propofol. After Michael's death in 2009 in CNN 360 this was claimed. Again Ratner never answered to any questions.
Click to expand...

For which I give him a lot of credit. I believe he claimed doctor patient confidentiality. Something Lee and Klein don't know about.
 
True, Cinzia... They should've just kept their mouth shut and gone to share what they know or claim to with the authorities, not the freakin' media.
 
I'm keeping an open mind, expecting the unexpected, wishing that the actual truth emerges.

Things just don't make sense left and right and therefore I don't think it impossible that the actual truth might paint a very different picture- or not. Just keeping an open mind.

The more I rethink known public testimony from anyone like Murray, Klein und Lee- the less ANYTHING makes sense to me. Guess the results from the hair samples will let us know.
 
jrsfan said:
[/B]I said you have to understand that this drug, you can't repeatedly take. Because what happens with narcotics, no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them.
Click to expand...

Of course it is not a narcotic, but you CAN develop a 'tolerance' to it.

"Propofol is a general anesthetic that can be used in the ICU when short-term (from several hours up to 5 days) sedation is required. Long-term sedation with propofol can result in tolerance to the medication. When tolerance occurs, increased doses of propfol are required to achieve the same level of sedation." http://www.helium.com/items/1761920-physiological-effects-of-propofol-on-patients-in-icu

It can be given either by repeat boluses or, more usually, by continuous infusion. However, prolonged use can lead to development of tolerance and a need for increasing doses.
http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice-clinical-research/sedation-in-the-intensive-care-unit/199634.article

While I know these articles are referring to continuous use in the ICU setting, if it is true what murray says about using it for 6 weeks, I imagine a tolerance could develop, requiring higher doses until finally maybe murray felt he had to give a really big dose. This could account for the high prop levels and murray's plaintive wail of 'I didn't give him anything that should have killed him'. In his mind, it shouldn't have.
 
cinzia said:
Of course it is not a narcotic, but you CAN develop a 'tolerance' to it.

"Propofol is a general anesthetic that can be used in the ICU when short-term (from several hours up to 5 days) sedation is required. Long-term sedation with propofol can result in tolerance to the medication. When tolerance occurs, increased doses of propfol are required to achieve the same level of sedation." http://www.helium.com/items/1761920-physiological-effects-of-propofol-on-patients-in-icu

It can be given either by repeat boluses or, more usually, by continuous infusion. However, prolonged use can lead to development of tolerance and a need for increasing doses.
http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice-clinical-research/sedation-in-the-intensive-care-unit/199634.article

While I know these articles are referring to continuous use in the ICU setting, if it is true what murray says about using it for 6 weeks, I imagine a tolerance could develop, requiring higher doses until finally maybe murray felt he had to give a really big dose. This could account for the high prop levels and murray's plaintive wail of 'I didn't give him anything that should have killed him'. In his mind, it shouldn't have.
Click to expand...

I agree... Muarry is just a piece of work though. I guess I could understand how one could be in disbelief that they caused another human being to die, but his actions don't show that. They show...., MAN I DONE F'D UP THIS TIME!!!! I gotta try to cover my as*. I just don't u derstand and never will. How can Muarry say " shouldn't have killed him" when you aren't an anesthesiologist to behgin with and 2) you didn't have the proper equipment. I could see if he was a doctor in the ICU had everything that was needed and something just happened to go wrong.... But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the case here....
 
Nurse Lee went to the media before she even went to authorities, WHY?!! SMH

Also, I would think taking Propofol for 6 weeks like that would screw at least ur liver up? And MJ liver in his autopsy was fine!

All I know is that if u already have a liver issue u should not take Propofol at all!
 
ivy said:
At 2000 Neil Ratner (History tour doctor) was going through a lawsuit for insurance fraud (totally unrelated to MJ). At that lawsuit the the lawyers claimed Ratner was giving MJ inappropriate drugs and maybe narcotics. Although he never answered any question some people believe that as Ratner was an anesthesiologist his treatment included the likes of propofol. After Michael's death in 2009 in CNN 360 this was claimed. Again Ratner never answered to any questions.
Click to expand...



CNN lost me when they said Michael during his autopsy was found to be all white had no hair just peach fuzz and his body was riddled with needle marks. So I take what they say with a few grains of salt
 
There are so many stories that I am going to wait for the hair tox and the cross-examination.
 
I am really, really, hoping that we get a clearer picture of what was going on and what went on with MJ. I am really hope that at the end we will have some kind of closure and not just end up more confused. I too have my doubts about the propofol story. I am just waiting and hoping.
 
thanks for your input/thoughts everyone. It's good to know that we all have many thoughts and unanswered questions in our minds. I will certainly await the hair tox results with great interest.
 
bluetopez said:
Also, I would think taking Propofol for 6 weeks like that would screw at least ur liver up? And MJ liver in his autopsy was fine!
Click to expand...


He absolutely couldn't have taken it that long, he would've died several deaths with/without Murray on his bedside. ..
 
angelofinnocence said:
Hello
I was thinking in bed last night that the whole propofol thing does not make the least bit of sense at all. We have all been fed this line about Michael knowing and taking propofol before but we have no concrete evidence of this whatsoever. It is all based on hearsay. I was thinking that I have been guilty of taken the above as true. I realise it is like 2005 all over again. Nobody has seems to have witnessed Michael take propofol outside a hospital at all nevermind at all. The idea of Conrad Murray supposedly injecting MJ night after night just dosen't ring true of Michael. Could it be possible Michael was duped into having it given to him? Could he thought he was being re-hydrated and only benzos were in the line?
Was he tricked/misinformed into using propofol? I am rambling now but does any of this make sense? The more I think about this the more questions I have.
Click to expand...


I think this is a very good point and I've thought of this myself. I think considering we have to go off of what the media is telling us, and we didn't know Michael personally we have to remain very open minded and be willing to look at things from every point of view until hopefully the pieces fit, and I agree they do not fit now. I think what you posted here is a real possibility. It makes more sense to me that Michael was receiving IV fluids to keep hydrated after long rehearsals and had never requested propofol. I've always had the feeling he didn't even know what hit him, but who knows right? I just think it's odd that no one knew anything about any propofol use until after he passed, and none of the people who talk about it seem reliable. I hope one day we know the truth.
 
in answer to the questions. if u mean red herring interms of its an excuse for murder then no i dont believe that

VERY interesting. So, the truth is out there, and the hair-sample analysis would reveal it.
Click to expand...
yeah that is very intresting. it will certainly help us get to the truth and see if murray is lieing about the 6 week issue.although it could also help murray with some of his claims.the thing is can they tell by the hair samples how much had been taken. ie murray claims mj was an addict and the hair samples show drugs was taken for the previous 6 months. can it prove the amounts that were given cause just cause you may have been taking something for 6 months doesnt mean u were addicted.

It makes more sense to me that Michael was receiving IV fluids to keep hydrated after long rehearsals and had never requested propofol.
Click to expand...
to me there could be credence for that if lets say murray just had one vial of diprivan on him and it got used out of the blue. ie murray says to mj i have this i could always give you it if you really want to be knocked out. but he brought crap loads of the stuff starting around april after the meeting in march with adams. there was obviously a premeditation to it
 
Lets' just assume for the purpose of this discussion, Michael had not taken Propofol BEFORE Murray gave it to him - so it could be possible then that Michael was given this as a way to control him regarding This is It? AEG, contract, This is It; Randy Phillips and Thome all together! Cold-blooded pre-meditated murder with Michael as the only victim, not Murray who's, as far as I see, continuing to get the "velvet cushion" treatment by the world at large as if he did the world one big favor! He makes me SICK!!!

The more I feel sure it's deliberate murder and not just an "accident", either negligence/incompetence! Geez, I'm so pissed off I could scream!
 
angelofinnocence said:
Hello
I was thinking in bed last night that the whole propofol thing does not make the least bit of sense at all. We have all been fed this line about Michael knowing and taking propofol before but we have no concrete evidence of this whatsoever. It is all based on hearsay. I was thinking that I have been guilty of taken the above as true. I realise it is like 2005 all over again. Nobody has seems to have witnessed Michael take propofol outside a hospital at all nevermind at all. The idea of Conrad Murray supposedly injecting MJ night after night just dosen't ring true of Michael. Could it be possible Michael was duped into having it given to him? Could he thought he was being re-hydrated and only benzos were in the line?
Was he tricked/misinformed into using propofol? I am rambling now but does any of this make sense? The more I think about this the more questions I have.
Click to expand...

Michael Jackson, was indeed murdered.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top