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Why can't we hire our own expert? (updated on page 3)

OK, I just got a reply from that audio specialist. He seem to be quite interested in this case. And yes he does prefer to work with isolated vocals' but since we already have a cappella of BN, I think it should do. We may need to provide him with some of Michael pre-recorded interviews, public speeches, a-cappella's, anything that have Michael saying at least 10 common words sung in the questionable tracks (I think we should only focus on BN and Monster). As for the fee, he charges 250% an hour, but willing to negotiate. I think if we decide to go through with this than it will be best if on of the senior community staff members will take the lead on this since I'm quite new here to be trusted with handling all the money transactions. So if anyone volunteers I'll be happy to provide my help and support.

This is what I wrote him yesterday:

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Hi ***

My name is Eli and I'm a member of the MJJC forum (Michael Jackson community forum). I'm sure you may have heard to controversy surrounding the latest posthumous album 'Michael' regarding the authenticity of 3 out of the 10 tracks on the album known as the Cascio tracks. Concerns being expressed by many fans around the world including members of the Jackson family about the authenticity of the lead vocals, claiming that they are not Michael’s vocals (many fans, including me believe that a voice-double was hired to complete the songs).

Anyway, today a thread was started in the MJJC forum, suggesting that we the fans hire a forensic audio specialist to analyze those questionable tracks in order to determine if the lead vocals are authentic or not. Looks like many fans are willing to participate and support this financially. You may see this thread here (must register first):

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99664

So I have a few questions for you sir:

1. Can you provide this king of service? Or perhaps recommend someone else who can?

2. Will the original CD will do, or will you be needing a raw vocal version or “a cappella” ? (We're not sure if we can get this from Sony music)

3. Can you give us a fee estimation for this kind of job?

Thanks

Sincerely

Eli

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/index.php

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And here is ***'s response:


Eli - your Query interests me as I am both a forensic audio examiner and a forensic musicologist. To answer your question, I typically charge $250 per hour with a 2 hour minimum retainer. We may be able to negotiate a better deal if the case has merit legally as it would be high profile and give me publicity. You are basically talking about voice identification. There are two methods - average pitch analysis and spectrographic analysis - word by word. We usually need 10 words in common to make a legally defensible argument. Vocals isolated is much preferred. Lets talk.


contact info removed


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How much extra would it cost to also compare the vocals to say erm......a certain person with the initials JM?
 
Surely you would need the original acappella or raw vocals that were worked on from Sony in order for it to be admissable legally. An a cappella plucked from you tube would be questionable the argument would be that it was not the same vocals they used to create the tracks therefore not an absolute accurate scientific test it would be thrown out of court. Their test and your test would have to be done on the same vocals in my opinion.

Dont see how you are gonna get hold of the tapes.
 
$250 an hour is not that much, but he would also need to give an estimate of how many hours he would need to get the job done! Can he do it in those 2 hours?

If so I guess $500 is not difficult to collect from the members of this forum. Not for a subject like this one.

Have to be careful though. I would delete the contact information of the person doing the analyzing (including his name!) because we wouldn't want him being contacted by the other party, now would we?
 
TheMan1998, you are the man!!!

Let me tell you I totally support this effort, and am willing to pay up to 50 Euros for this

The feedback from this Kent Gibson is very positive (the price sounds reasonable). But let me give some ideas of what I think needs to be done

First we gotta inform more fan clubs about this project (I could go open a thread in MaxJax if you like). Perhaps we could search for more forensic audiologists too? (you know just to have more options).

And just because I can be very suspicious sometimes, I don't want the name of the man who will eventually test the Cascio tracks to be known to everybody, because he may be contacted and paid money

Right after we have some scientific proof in our hands, the staff of mj fan clubs can unite and sue Sony and the Estate. OMG, it is possible!!!
 
This could be A DREAM coming true if WE FANS have the audacity to sue Sony the Goliath

This potential project is the ONLY way to become again united as one MJCOMMUNITY not divided like we are right now whatever happens
 
"We usually need 10 words in common to make a legally defensible argument"

That part I didn't quite understand. He means that if at least 10 words match then it is the same voice? Or if tests find 10 words that don't match the real MJ then the conclusion is it is not him?
 
I think he means 10 words from the song in question and the same 10 ten words sung (or spoken) by Michael in a different song (a speech) to make a comparison. But I could be wrong. I think someone who's in US should give this guy a call and discuss it in more detail over the phone.

You know, that I support the album and I am sure that it's Michael's voice but I've been waiting for "the other camp", so to speak, to start this action so that it can finally be researched and done over with. That's why I'm following the thread. I hope you won't back out and make this research happen.
 
Maybe someone should create a Facebook page, so that everybody who wants to participate on this can go sign up there? EDIT this will be the reason to create a facebook account btw, cause I don't have one at the moment
 
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barok232 said:
First we gotta inform more fan clubs about this project (I could go open a thread in MaxJax if you like). Perhaps we could search for more forensic audiologists too? (you know just to have more options).
Click to expand...

Thanks, yes please you may go ahead and bring this to other MJ forums, just make sure they know it was our initiative here... That goes for everyone else here who is a member of other forums. I do not want to take it too far without first hearing what Gaz has to say about this.. I can't speak for MJJC as I'm only a member here. If someone could bring this up to Staff's attention that would be great. We need to go with this together and make sure we'll get it right. And Yes the specialist should also compare the vocals to any other MJ voice-wannabes like JM...
 
This is good. Far more constructive than insulting each other. I hope all fans support this.
 
This sounds interesting. Can we rely on this guy though to give a truthful result, when there is the possibility of major publicity for him if he provides a controversial answer?
 
Anna said:
This sounds interesting. Can we rely on this guy though to give a truthful result, when there is the possibility of major publicity for him if he provides a controversial answer?
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I'm hoping the evidence will speak for itself...otherwise what's the point?
 
I wouldn't bother anymore experts when we have two ears that have listened him such a long time and they know it's Michael.
 
yes.

someone trustworthy around here (well most obviously gaz) could just set up a donation box where everyone can put in his money. guess this test should be around 1000-2000 usd.

the acapella of breaking news should be enough (because the tracks teddy riley etc. got to work with from the cascios were already crap to begin with) and that can be compared to the acapella of you rock my world.

should suffice, what y'all think?
 
Thanks, good thinking. Contact info removed. Anyway, since we have yet to decide which audio expert we're gonna hire, no damage was done.. I'll be contacting a few other experts in this matter. Still waiting to hear from staff members. BTW' I'm quite sure that there is some audio expert out there that would love to take this case even for free' after all think of all the publicity he is going to get if he successfully proves it's not MJ singing!
 
TheMan1998 said:
Thanks, good thinking. Contact info removed. Anyway, since we have yet to decide which audio expert we're gonna hire, no damage was done.. I'll be contacting a few other experts in this matter. Still waiting to hear from staff members. BTW' I'm quite sure that there is some audio expert out there that would love to take this case even for free' after all think of all the publicity he is going to get if he successfully proves it's not MJ singing!
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Yeah, but that's the problem. He could fabricate some results to make it seem like it's not MJ, to get publicity.
 
if he comes up with enough credible proof its not MJ, I'll be the first to say im sorry.

but what will happen if he proves it's him? will you guys be convinced?

edit: @ Anna, thats also could happen...
 
I am happy to chip in...

Private Message Me... when needed.
 
SLAYER said:
if he comes up with enough credible proof its not MJ, I'll be the first to say im sorry.

but what will happen if he proves it's him? will you guys be convinced?

edit: @ Anna, thats also could happen...
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If 2 musicologists give the exact same results whatever the results i dont know why and HOW i could go against them especialy when its SCIENTIFIC results

I am against the Cascio tracks and havent bought the album
But if 2 independant forensics say they are 100% michael no doutbs about that (with all the proof etc ) then i will go and buy my copy and be one of the first to say sorry i have no problem to recognise my mistakes
 
serena williams;3143294 said:
Ivy is absolutely right

Seth is a vocal coach NOT a scientific
Where was the last time he has coached MJ
If the impersonator is very good its likely seth doesnt recognise the voice or he can be confused

A lot of fans have been listening to michael 's music for at least 25 years and some believe it is him some other dont
Seth 's opinion is not worth for this issue ONLY a scientific one

But if you want to believe seth then be free but as long as there are no SCIENTIFIC proof given to us fans will continu to be divided
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- Not to start a big debate about this, and I hear what you´re saying. But I so don´t agree with you. Yes, I know Seth Riggs is a vocal coach and not a scientific. But he was Michael Jackson´s vocal coach and the person who knows MJ´s voice better than anyone - including you, me and anyoone on this forum and any other forums. Seth has trained MJ´s voice for huge parts of his career and has heard avery single note MJ had in him. And although MJ didn´t sing much publically during his final years I would be surprised if he didn´t have any lessons with Seth to work on his voice - he must have had it.

But by all means, I truly support a scientific to do this, too. But to me there is absolutely no doubt that Seth Riggs knows Michael Jackson´s voice better than ANY fan no matter how many years we have been listening to MJ because he has both been listening to him, woked with him and is a professional who knows what to listen for. He also knows his voice better than any producer or family member IMHO. So to me Seth is the ultimate expert on MJ´s voice.

But I absolutely respect your opinion and get what you´re saying though, Serena :)
 
I would definitely participate in this if you find an expert that we could trust.
But it should be a really authoritative person. Either way he could easily contact Sony to tell them about what's going on and then ask to pay him to claim it's real
But if we find a really independent expert and it would be proven it's Michael singing, I promise never to say the word 'fake' again :)
 
Mr. Norway;3143551 said:
- Not to start a big debate about this, and I hear what you´re saying. But I so don´t agree with you. Yes, I know Seth Riggs is a vocal coach and not a scientific. But he was Michael Jackson´s vocal coach and the person who knows MJ´s voice better than anyone - including you, me and anyoone on this forum and any other forums. Seth has trained MJ´s voice for huge parts of his career and has heard avery single note MJ had in him. And although MJ didn´t sing much publically during his final years I would be surprised if he didn´t have any lessons with Seth to work on his voice - he must have had it.

But by all means, I truly support a scientific to do this, too. But to me there is absolutely no doubt that Seth Riggs knows Michael Jackson´s voice better than ANY fan no matter how many years we have been listening to MJ because he has both been listening to him, woked with him and is a professional who knows what to listen for. He also knows his voice better than any producer or family member IMHO. So to me Seth is the ultimate expert on MJ´s voice.

But I absolutely respect your opinion and get what you´re saying though, Serena :)
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Ok i see what you mean

But i realy think that a scientific who doesnt nkow nothing about michael's voice is beyond worther than anything seth can say to us
Because Seth would give us "his feelings " an expert would give us " tangible proofs" thats the big difference
 
TheMan1998 said:
Thanks, good thinking. Contact info removed. Anyway, since we have yet to decide which audio expert we're gonna hire, no damage was done.. I'll be contacting a few other experts in this matter. Still waiting to hear from staff members. BTW' I'm quite sure that there is some audio expert out there that would love to take this case even for free' after all think of all the publicity he is going to get if he successfully proves it's not MJ singing!
Click to expand...

In this case I really wouldn't mind paying and looking for a pro bono is the last thing on my mind if it means finally being able to clarify this mess. Besides, I'd prefer an expert getting paid because if he doesn't get paid there is a bigger possibility he'd try to get some sort of justification the other way, e.g. fabricating a false result of it not being Michael's voice in order to get some publicity, even if it in fact was Michael's voice.

Anna said:
Yeah, but that's the problem. He could fabricate some results to make it seem like it's not MJ, to get publicity.
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That's why getting the job done by two independant sources is the way to go.
 
Yes, we need an independant one instead of one that does it for "free"; you wouldn't know what that guy would do, might just lie and go to the press and say "My results say this is not MJ blablablabla".

This guy does seem good though, and I would be happy to put my money in to this project.
 
I simply can say that we really don´t have to hire a music expert.
In my eyes the whole thing with the album belongs to a very good worked out PR story that Michael stays in the media and in talk.

I guess Sony knows what they are doing from the beginning. We all shell keeping talking and discussing about. Keepin´ on, keepin´on, keepin´on!
 
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