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Murray Trial - Day 19 - October 27 2011 - Discussion

ivy said:
Walgren versus Waldman
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OMG, what the eff is wrong with this guy? I missed his testimony today, but I read throughout the thread that he was an arrogant asshole, but I NEVER thought he'd be like this! I just saw this little clip and not even his full testimony but wtf?!
 
Ramona122003 said:
What I think he meant was that lorazepam isn't a painkiller and it isn't use to treat pain. From my understand, doctor use other drugs for pain medication, not propofol or lorazepam. From what I read of propofol, you can appear to be sleeping and non-responsive, but you are still 'conscious in some sense and can feel pain.

Also, I don't see him discrediting Shefer, but he just doesn't agree with him on certain things. Like how he thought the sleep study was interesting while Shefer was very critical of it. This kind of disagreement happens all the time in any profession.
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What I meant with discrediting is saying things like patients reactions are different from a person to another = don't rely on Dr Shafers models, they don't say that's how MJ reacted. But that's not exactly what Dr Shafer was saying, Dr Shafer was saying that MJ was not even close to any of his self injection models...

And all those comments , spelling, using rejected papers..

About the non responsive to pain, it was merely used by Dr Shafer to show a level of sedation, and Dr White also used that to indicate a level of sedation
 
twinklEE said:
OMG, what the eff is wrong with this guy? I missed his testimony today, but I read throughout the thread that he was an arrogant asshole, but I NEVER thought he'd be like this! I just saw this little clip and not even his full testimony but wtf?!
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When professionals act that way in court, it does not look good in my opinion. It looks like they are there to support whatever side called them versus actually dealing only with facts.
 
True JVM needs to chill constantly trying to compare MJ to herself, Jermaine gave her a warning earlier yet she still ask T-Mez dumb questions! Also Kleins Lawyer also told her Klein was investigated already so to me she just likes to sound like a broken record. All media do though.
 
bouee said:
What I meant with discrediting is saying things like patients reactions are different from a person to another = don't rely on Dr Shafers models, they don't say that's how MJ reacted. But that's not exactly what Dr Shafer was saying, Dr Shafer was saying that MJ was not even close to any of his self injection models...

And all those comments , spelling, using rejected papers..

About the non responsive to pain, it was merely used by Dr Shafer to show a level of sedation, and Dr White also used that to indicate a level of sedation
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I see what you mean, but I don't think discredit is the right word, imo. When I think of discredit it means that Shefer's findings mean nothing or he was completely wrong. From what I've seen White doesn't disagree with the date, but stated that the date wasn't 100% correct either and the levels could be higher or lower based on the individuals. I think even Shefer would agree with that statement.

We honestly don't know how Michael reacted, but the levels still wouldn't had match if Michael's heart was still beating. If White said that Michael died immediately it would impeach Murray since he clearly said in his own interview that not only did he find a pulse, but he check Michael's vitals using a pulse oximeter. So he either lied then or he's lying now, which brings everything into question.

On the pain levels, I think Fan specially asked White about it. The spelling comment seemed to be his idea of a joke since I think he said that Shefer still can't spell. It actually seems like a comment my brother would make about me.
 
bluetopez said:
True JVM needs to chill constantly trying to compare MJ to herself, Jermaine gave her a warning earlier yet she still ask T-Mez dumb questions! Also Kleins Lawyer also told her Klein was investigated already so to me she just likes to sound like a broken record all media do though.
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True, but Jermaine still gets no credit from me until he calls out members of his own family for starting this crap to begin with. Where were these harsh words when Joe, Oxman, Rowe, Toya, Rebbie, Randy, Janet, and even Deepak went out to the media and called Michael an addict and talking about interventions and denial.

Jermaine's cherry picking is annoying and self-righteous.
 
^I agree with that too! But, it still affected the media or Jane and her show to atleast show how well Walgren did on Cross if not people who just came home and watch her show would have thought it was just all good for the defense when it really wasn't.
 
Did anyone else see Dr White smiling and make a......are you ok kind of gesture to the jury at the end. I presume it was the jury he looked at cause it's the same direction the pro's experts looked when they addressed the jury with there knowledge. If that's what he did, surely that would be a huge turn off for jury.
 
Did not see the second part of the cross, but did Walgren ask the doc what aspects of the public record did he use to make a determination that Michael was addicted to demoral. I remember the doctor saying he used what was out there in the public.
 
bluetopez said:
^I agree with that too! But, it still affected the media or Jane and her show to atleast show how well Walgren did on Cross if not people who just came home and watch her show would have thought it was just all good for the defense when it really wasn't.
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I do agree, but his words are flat given that the most popular among the Jackson, Janet, called Michael an addict and people put more stack in her words over Jermaine. Not to mention all the intervention and leading a horse to water. If he had called Janet out, people may took him more seriously, but he comes off as a hypocrite.

Now, I respect Jermaine for keeping it real when Michael died and despite my misgivings towards Janet for adding to the addict crap, I still like her as a person, so this isn't personal and I'm not saying this out of hatred towards the family. But, the Jacksons won't get anywhere with this double standard towards Michael. You can't blame the media for this and that when people in your own party is adding to the noise.
 
I think that it's silly that people gave Janet more attention for saying she believed MJ was addicted only because she is the most famous after MJ. And I think the media or any fan who believed her was silly to accept that for that reason alone. She barely saw him to even know such a thing. I rather base is he or isn't he addicted on facts. And atleast Jermaine unlike Janet is actually stating facts from the trial FINALLY! So I wouldn't say his words are flat anymore do to that he is repeating things that were found in the auptopsy report just like us and the expert that said the same thing. Which is why JVM did a turn around after he tweeted her facts that she purposley ignored. So for me Janet words were the flat ones and whomever before that said stuff before even knowing. I believe Jermaine did the same at one point but, atleast he is paying attention now. Which is all I can ask for and what he should be doing for his brother and then some.
 
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Petrarose said:
Did not see the second part of the cross, but did Walgren ask the doc what aspects of the public record did he use to make a determination that Michael was addicted to demoral. I remember the doctor saying he used what was out there in the public.
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Sorry for the doubt post again.


To answer your question, the doctor gave indication that he based his point-of-view on reports from the 80s and 90s, but the defense objected before he could go further.

In all honestly, I think he holds Michael's eccentrics and overall personality as evident of addiction. Not to mention the family talking about interventions and denial.
 
Ashtanga said:
Can anyone tell me what day will end this trial? When will we havethe verdict? :unsure:
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no one knows.

at this time the earliest the case can end seems to be monday . and no one can say how much time the jury will take to decide
 
Ramona122003 said:
That expert was severally tainted and the DA get a good job exposing him for his bias. He claim that Michael was an addict more or less on media reports. He most likely concluded that Michael's strange personality and eccentrics were caused by addiction. Not to mention all the family members and their friends with their intervention stories and talk of denial. But, he had no knowledge that Murray was given a suppose addict/depended a highly addictive sleep medication that also had similar efforts as opiate withdraws. He didn't even look at Murray's police statement.


I still want someone to explain why an addict/depended would go to a doctor office for the drug fix where everything they take is documented instead of getting a prescription and taking at the comforts of their house like million of other addicts. Especially Michael with paps and fans following his every move.
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Are you serious? Mj was having botox injections at Kliens oice, Flannnagann mentioned it court,but was interrupted. It wanted to look his best for us fans. The dermatologist will do those prodedures as well as a laser treatment, chemical peels to smooth the appearance of fine lines in the face and many other facial tratments can be don through a dermatologist, I have them done all the time. I'm not addited to any drug. MJ was getting ready for his come back tour, TII and he was a perfectionist so I don't blame him one bit.
 
Yes Dr klein was already investigated very early on as well as other Drs. by the dea
they found nothing to indicate and unlawful activity. the DA then turned their investigation
soley on Murray

Also Dr Kleins treatment and doses or Demoral given to Mj are withing the AMA guidlines
He did not overdose Michael. on the avearge Mj went 2-3 times aweek for proceedures
also not exessive . he was having injections of restyln and botox to very sensitive areas
of his face. eyes nose mouth neck and needed pain meds for those proceedures. Dr Klien
had stated previosuly MJ was sensitive to pain and needle phopic ..

In the end the EXPERT admitted he could NOT diagnose MJ to be a addict based on Kleins records.
Of course the media wil ignore that statement for the most part - but the Jury wont ignore that FACT
 
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge said he has no idea when jurors will get case and is concerned w/ the back and forth analysis/reanalysis. Will there ever be an end?
10 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
So the plan is to resume trial at 8:45 am tomorrow w/ direct examination of Dr. Paul White & once defense is done probably recess 4 weekend

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge is concern with losing jurors. Even though they are very committed and paying extreme attention, they have their own lives.
14 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: but judge acknowledges this is a very sophisticated software and that prosecution should be given time to prepare.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: Judge expressed his concern since he told jurors their services would be needed until tomorrow. And that meant w/ deliberation
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: Walgren said the court had accommodated defense's request to go dark and prepare, so now it's his time to ask.
2 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More exc tidbits: software's creation was finalized at 11p yesterday by Dr. White; offers diagrams w/ urine levels in respect 2 blood levels
3 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More exc tidbits: Walgren said that based on this new software he's not prepare to cross examine Dr. White until Monday. #conradmurraytrial
6 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: attorneys met with Judge Pastor in chambers and Walgren said he just received new Propofol simulation software program.
 
ivy said:
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge said he has no idea when jurors will get case and is concerned w/ the back and forth analysis/reanalysis. Will there ever be an end?
10 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
So the plan is to resume trial at 8:45 am tomorrow w/ direct examination of Dr. Paul White & once defense is done probably recess 4 weekend

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge is concern with losing jurors. Even though they are very committed and paying extreme attention, they have their own lives.
14 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: but judge acknowledges this is a very sophisticated software and that prosecution should be given time to prepare.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: Judge expressed his concern since he told jurors their services would be needed until tomorrow. And that meant w/ deliberation
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: Walgren said the court had accommodated defense's request to go dark and prepare, so now it's his time to ask.
2 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More exc tidbits: software's creation was finalized at 11p yesterday by Dr. White; offers diagrams w/ urine levels in respect 2 blood levels
3 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More exc tidbits: Walgren said that based on this new software he's not prepare to cross examine Dr. White until Monday. #conradmurraytrial
6 minutes ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: attorneys met with Judge Pastor in chambers and Walgren said he just received new Propofol simulation software program.
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um? what do all these mean? No cross exam till Monday? I think the defense is trying to say there will be all different kind of possibilities of what happened that day. Maybe they are trying to discredit Dr. Shafer said before. However, the fact is Murray killed MJ. I just hope Walgren can handle this "new program" and still focus on the main point. I also hope the jury won't be confused by all these analysis and see the main point of this trial. It's because of Murray that MJ died on 6/25/2009.
 
Admittedly, I'm just an idiot because I don't see why the pros can't get their point across with the basics of this case and ask Dr. Paul White the most relevant questions.

Was Murray grossly negiligent in leaving MJ unattended?
Was he grossly negligent in not having the proper monitoring equipment?
Was he grossly negligent in not immediately calling 911? ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

That's what this case is about and should be brought back to. The pros has established their case and it seems to me should just be hammering it home. It's not what MJ was or did. But what Murray grossly neglected to do and makes him accountable for MJ's death.
 
marebear said:
So far he is saying he never saw Michael taking anything or looked addcited to anything all the time he worked with Michael. He can only go by his experineces with Michael. He says whatever happened today has nothing to do with what Murray did and the defense is just trying to demonize Michael. Murray is the one on trial.
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YAY GO T-MEZ! :clap:
 
Thank you Ivy for posting that,,,I didnt realize that new evidence could be brought into a case...especially something like this. I thought all evidence had to be presented before the case started. Like Kliens medical records...Walgren made sure that Chernoff/Flanny had them before the trial started. I dont get how they can just pulled new stuff out.
 
Smdh....

Lsa:
according to a reporter for abc 7 randy, janet & rebbie were nodding in agreement when waldman was discussing people hiding their drug issues from family and doctors.
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Jermaine is the only one in that family (with the exception of Marlon, Tito, and Jackie) that had his head on straight during this trial....
 
gerryevans said:
Admittedly, I'm just an idiot because I don't see why the pros can't get their point across with the basics of this case and ask Dr. Paul White the most relevant questions.

Was Murray grossly negiligent in leaving MJ unattended?
Was he grossly negligent in not having the proper monitoring equipment?
Was he grossly negligent in not immediately calling 911? ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

That's what this case is about and should be brought back to. The pros has established their case and it seems to me should just be hammering it home. It's not what MJ was or did. But what Murray grossly neglected to do and makes him accountable for MJ's death.
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I totally agree,,,I think they forgot what this case is about,,,and that is the gross negligence of Murray, All this garabage that the defense is trying to throw out there ...even like with this new software program...what does that have anything to do at all with Murray and his negligence to give his patient proper care.IMO...nothing. It doesn't mean a damn thing in the end....imo..all it is ...is a show for the jurors so that they MAY forget who the REAL person on trial is. Jeez wish they would just wrap this mess up already,
 
bluetopez said:
I think that it's silly that people gave Janet more attention for saying she believed MJ was addicted only because she is the most famous after MJ. And I think the media or any fan who believed her was silly to accept that for that reason alone. She barely saw him to even know such a thing. I rather base is he or isn't he addicted on facts. And atleast Jermaine unlike Janet is actually stating facts from the trial FINALLY! So I wouldn't say his words are flat anymore do to that he is repeating things that were found in the auptopsy report just like us and the expert that said the same thing. Which is why JVM did a turn around after he tweeted her facts that she purposley ignored. So for me Janet words were the flat ones and whomever before that said stuff before even knowing. I believe Jermaine did the same at one point but, atleast he is paying attention now. Which is all I can ask for and what he should be doing for his brother and then some.
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I just want to say this and I'll let the subject rest.

It isn't just cause Janet is famous. The narrative for years with her is that she is the most sane and down to earth in that family. Kind of like how no one take anything Toya has to say seriously because she is viewed as insane by the general public.

Jermaine maybe has facts on his side on the addict talk, but he has also BS through some stuff which makes him unbelievable in some ways. Like the entire episode with 'Word to the Badd' and all the excuses he had made to why that even happened. About how he is and never was jealous of Michael and his fame, although any laid person knows that he is. How Michael loved to tour with the brothers, but he ran like hell from any reunion tour. How Michael was close to becoming a Muslim, which is another load. How he was going to name names about those who were really behind the 2005 trial, never did. How Michael was cut off from his family, despite other people having no problem reach Michael. How Joe never abused any of them, I mean really? Suggesting that Michael hit his own kids to discipline them, no one believes that for a moment. How Jermaine stuck up for his dad after he blamed his own mother for Michael's death, classy.

So you see, Jermaine isn't playing with a full deck and he does lie or stress the truth when it suites him. That's why fans didn't believe him when he said Michael wasn't an addict and he was only saying that because he wanted to use Michael in his last days.

Janet has largely been truthful when she speaks to Michael, so of course fans and the media will put more stack in her words. Which is why I found it more annoying when she called Michael an addict out of all the family members because she should of known better.
 
MsCassieMollie said:
Smdh....

Lsa:
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When i read that it got me worried as its bad enough that the media are doing everything they can to make michael seem like a drug addict and having randy, rebbie & janet nodding to that doesnt help michael at all.
 
according to a reporter for abc 7 randy, janet & rebbie were nodding in agreement when waldman was discussing people hiding their drug issues from family and doctors.

pay attention to 30 second mark

 
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