The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and Other Theories

[bluetopez]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I seen clips online and on tv of other defendents famous and not famous where their verdicts were never read the way Murrays was. But, I did see the same defendents either sitting or standing while their verdicts were read. So that part don't matter much. It's the alleged part that I have never seen before. It's def strange but, proves nothin. Murray is still in jail where he belongs IMO and it's not even an issue his own lawyers are making, so....=/

 

[Victory22]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

How can he (MJ) be an allegded victim when the verdict says he was killed?

Answer: Until the verdict was read and Murray was pronounced GUILTY MJ was an "ALLEGDED" victim.

 

[bluetopez]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

He was pronounced Guilty and then the alleged statement was read, not before hand. Which is the reason why I guess some were confused?

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

He was pronounced Guilty and then the alleged statement was read, not before hand. Which is the reason why I guess some were confused?

I had posted about it on the previous page:

Question
Why in the Conrad Murray case, during the verdict Michael Jackson was still stated as alleged victim?and waht does alleged date means?Verdict:
Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information

Answer

When the verdict form was drafted, Jackson was still an "alleged" victim, because Dr. Murray was then presumed innocent. Obviously, that's no longer true.

Michael Stone

Law Offices of Michael B. Stone Toll Free 1-855-USE-MIKE
3020 Old Ranch Parkway, Suite 300
Seal Beach, CA 90740

http://www.lawguru.com/legal-questions/-/conrad-murray-case-verdict-michael-119617113/a


It was posted in this thread: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-victim-quot-and-quot-alleged-date-quot/page2

Maybe someone missed it? Well, I do not know, that thing "alleged" is still very strange to me. I always wondered why anything related to Michael have to be complicated to understand. :doh:

 

[Lisha]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Just trying to objectively look at this here.

Everyone is so focused on the "alleged victim" bit. And here the response from the individual who works in a law office is also focusing on the
"alleged victim." And his explanation seems reasonable (and I'm all for that):

Question
Why in the Conrad Murray case, during the verdict Michael Jackson was still stated as alleged victim?and waht does alleged date means?Verdict:
Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information

Answer

When the verdict form was drafted, Jackson was still an "alleged" victim, because Dr. Murray was then presumed innocent. Obviously, that's no longer true.

Michael Stone

Law Offices of Michael B. Stone Toll Free 1-855-USE-MIKE
3020 Old Ranch Parkway, Suite 300
Seal Beach, CA 90740

I wish he would have explained, though, how the "established date" of that alleged victim...established I would guess even before the original paperwork was drawn up...that date being firmly known all along as June 25, 2009...could ever be "reasonably" described as an "alleged date?"

Would he take a moment to address that one? That as of yet makes no sense to me and the above email helps not in the slightest in making sense of it. Alleged date?

After the verdict of guity, the alleged victim became a victim because it was proved he was a "true" victim of Dr. Murray's negligence, etc.

So then...(to follow this logic) it wasn't until after the verdict that we could know for sure that Michael died on June 25, 2009? And it took the verdict of guilty to prove it is the "true" date afterall? Before the verdict, no one just couldn't have known for sure...so the form had to be careful how it was worded, so there were no inaccuracies or assumptions made, and needed to state the date of death as "alleged."

Yes, Ash, I agree with you. Perplexing indeed.

Well, I said I was going to be objective so...

is it because the alleged date does not indicate the "date of the victim's death" but the "crime?" So until Dr. Murray was proved guilty even the date of the crime was "alleged" because it had not been proven in court there was a crime done and Dr.Murray was behind it. So alleged date of crime on the form, as well as alleged victim, until decided by a jury, that both existed, by that verdict of guilty. Does that make sense? Is that why the form also says "alleged date?"

 

[qbee]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Yes it is the alledged date a crime tooke place. once it is proven a crime took place on that datewith a guilty verdict it is no longer alleged.

 

[Suzie B]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

^^Understood, BUT saying Michael was an "alledged victim" is ridiculous - the autopsy report always described Michael as a victim with the acute intoxication of propofol the question was whether Murray's actions/ommissions were beyond any reasonable doubt responsible for the outcome - however Michael was always the victim. The more I think about it the more confused I get :/

 

[Lisha]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

^ perhaps it may mean in the wording in the court document that he was an alleged victim of Dr. Murray's alone, because that was what the trial was out to determine one way or the other. Until it was proved in court Michael was seen as an alleged victim of Dr. Murray's...all the evidence needed to be looked at first, and the jury objectively needed to decide based on the evidence if Michael was indeed a victim to wrong doing (crime) by Dr. Murray. So the court viewed it within the confines of that courtroom and its specific proceedings, as Michael being only an "alleged victim" until the verdict of guilty was decided upon and read.

What I am using as my reasoning here is all based on the input of this Michael Stone and his explanation in that email posted above. I'm following that logic.

Now if there were some legal papers drawn up now after the verdict that still described Michael as an alleged victim of Dr. Murray's and the date of the crime as still being alleged...that would be beyond bazaar.




I guess what I am saying is if the above occured it could not be "explained away" but this form in question of late and its wording can be "explained away", and I realize that makes it not so fun for the beLIEvers, and no one appreciates a killjoy. But what is impressive is when beLIEvers stay as objective as possible and do come across things that so far cannot be "explained away."

Pearl Jr. from my observations comes up with quite a bit of "facts" that can be "explained away" and I wish in a way it were not so for I kinda enjoy her enthusiasm and it is rather contagious. Her videos are enjoyable and stay on the light side because of her up personality, and I always like seeing what she will have on next, lol, and what her "do" is gonna be in the next vid. Pearl, you looked very nice in that red top with white lace in your last few vids...very flattering on you.

For example...wouldn't one think that on the note posted above from the recent doc...

that Pearl Jr's suggesting, that "seven digits" is indicating the seven letter word "verdict," and is a direct clue for beLIEvers to not believe the recent verdict,

...that this reasoning cannot not be supported as well as the understanding that Michael was jotting down separate song titles with "Verdict" being one. and "Seven Digits" being another? That's how it would logically seem...

although the hook is: fans know from the man himself things aren't always how they look...

That hook has been a major factor in getting everyone into trouble with seeing more into things "sometimes" than what is really there. And I believe Pearl Jr. can be a good example of that. No offense, Pearl Jr. it's just what I have seen at times (but not all the time)...I know you are having fun, and have lots of followers, and are stimulated by this all and have a right to do what you do.

But it is too easy to see more into things than what is there...but sometimes...there is something there, unless with further looking into it, it can be explained away.

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

^^Understood, BUT saying Michael was an "alledged victim" is ridiculous - the autopsy report always described Michael as a victim with the acute intoxication of propofol

Michael was always the victim.

Fact! -_- Well, some things still (and always will be) difficult to understand. :doh:

 

[MJJ7777]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Im still confused perhaps even more than before, if this was drafted and/or a draft then like someone one else pointed out earlier...the draft shouldn't read that Conrad Murray was guilty...Murray should have been an alleged killer too, it simply isn't uniform.
Here's a video that compares similar trial verdicts being read in California, they're all alike except for Murray's manslaughter trial...like ashtanga said, everything with Michael is always complicated!

http://www.youtube.com/user/MJFanFOREVERAndADAY?blend=1&ob=4

 

[Lisha]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I think the fact that so far what those researching this have discovered: NO OTHER court cases having something like this read using the term "alleged," makes one stop and say...."Well...why the exception this time?" I am waiting for someone to find a video clip where the word "alleged" is used in the same way. So far no one has...but does that mean none exist? Not necessarily. So nothing is conclusive...yet.

It would be nice for someone who would be a credible person to ask to tell us why the exception in this case. And will their answer satisfy?

(good point, MJJ7777, about how it would be appreciated to have some uniformity in there. )

 

[Miche]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I think the fact that so far what those researching this have discovered: NO OTHER court cases having something like this read using the term "alleged," makes one stop and say...."Well...why the exception this time?" I am waiting for someone to find a video clip where the word "alleged" is used in the same way. So far no one has...but does that mean none exist? Not necessarily. So nothing is conclusive...yet.

It would be nice for someone who would be a credible person to ask to tell us why the exception in this case. And will their answer satisfy?

Hi there Shila!

Well I stated back a few pages earlier that I had asked someone who I think is very knowledgable in the field and they said they have never heard of it!

So I asked permission and they said its ok to quote them. It was William Wagner and as far as Im concerned he has tons of experience when it comes to court cases and what goes on and what is said ....and he sure has an eye for detail about wording and things like this!

So he has NEVER heard of it!!!.... and he is currently looking into it, as he is just as puzzled as us about it!

He said he will do a video on it. So I will let you know what he comes up with. !

 

[bluetopez]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I seen the note with the song title "Verdict" But, There was also a song title on MJ notes found in his house called "D.I.E" and other note that said "Conrad on story."

Also the mirror Mj wrote on in the house he died in to motivate him talked about him going full out on rehersal on the months of April and May but, he doesn't mention JUNE at all? O_O Weird?

 

[Milka]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I seen the note with the song title "Verdict" But, There was also a song title on MJ notes found in his house called "D.I.E" and other note that said "Conrad on story."

Can you post a picture of that?

7 digits - November 7?

And did anybody ever find out why the seal in the stream had 32 stars instead of 31?

Oh, and no, just for the people who don't like this thread - I'm not a believer, but some things are just strange.

 

[MJJ7777]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I seen the note with the song title "Verdict" But, There was also a song title on MJ notes found in his house called "D.I.E" and other note that said "Conrad on story."

Also the mirror Mj wrote on in the house he died in to motivate him talked about him going full out on rehersal on the months of April and May but, he doesn't mention JUNE at all? O_O Weird?

Yes, Yes, I saved that image screenshot it was from Murray's Documentary, it also included songs on the Michael album produced by Teddy Riley (Best of Joy, Hold My Hand and Hollywood Tonight) after MJ's death. I believe there was some controversy as to wether the vocals on there really were Michael's. Teddy Riley is also an interesting figure in the possible hoax as he's hinted that he believes MJ's not really "dead".

 

[bluetopez]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Yes, Yes, I saved that image screenshot it was from Murray's Documentary, it also included songs on the Michael album produced by Teddy Riley (Best of Joy, Hold My Hand and Hollywood Tonight) after MJ's death. I believe there was some controversy as to wether the vocals on there really were Michael's. Teddy Riley is also an interesting figure in the possible hoax as he's hinted that he believes MJ's not really "dead".

Correct! I don't have a screen shot of it though. And I really don't want to rewatch that ish doc either to do it and post it here like Milka ask of me, Sorry!:no: That Doc made me want to fly in the screen and beat Murray down. Since u have a screen shot of it already MJJ7777 can u upload it? Thx

Hey Milka about the California Seal when I seen Lindsay Lohan Hearing they also showed the California Seal and in that video it showed only 31 stars and not the 32 in the Murray trial. So it's all very strange...and yep no need to be a believer to notice these things.

 

[MJJ7777]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Correct! I don't have a screen shot of it though. And I really don't want to rewatch that ish doc either to do it and post it here like Milka ask of me, Sorry!:no: That Doc made me want to fly in the screen and beat Murray down. Since u have a screen shot of it already MJJ7777 can u upload it? Thx

Hey Milka about the California Seal when I seen Lindsay Lohan Hearing they also showed the California Seal and in that video it showed only 31 stars and not the 32 in the Murray trial. So it's all very strange...and yep no need to be a believer to notice these things.

I can't find the other one that has the rehearsal schedule from april to may excluding June but I remember seeing it. I'd love to see the note that says "Conrad on Story", where did you see it blue?

 

[bluetopez]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

THX That's the one with the Song Title D.I.E on it.

But, Milka was asking for the other note that said "Conrad in story"

By the way I notice too on the note above it says "To late to go back now" and then some other word begining with the letter V under it? Anybody know what that word is and what's that about, was it another song he was working on?

 

[MJJ7777]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

THX That's the one with the Song Title D.I.E on it.

But, Milka was asking for the other note that said "Conrad in story"

By the way I notice too on the note above it says "To late to go back now" and then some other word begining with the letter V under it? Anybody know what that word is and what's that about, was it another song he was working on?

Yeah Ive never seen that one either. The best word I could make out for now is probably vacation or ?vocon?? (I googled that word and got an auction company)

EDIT: Here's another one from the MJHD forum.

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

New video by Luna:


[youtube]kOmT1myeZnY[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOmT1myeZnY&feature=autoshare

I'm not a believer, but some things are just strange.

Fact!

But, Milka was asking for the other note that said "Conrad in story"

Yeah Ive never seen that one either. The best word I could make out for now is probably vacation or ?vocon?? (I googled that word and got an auction company)

EDIT: Here's another one from the MJHD forum.

Blue, Now I see. But the handwriting from Michael is so bad to understand. It's really Conrad is written? Wow, I had not seen these other notes and I really have not watched the documentary of the Murray, it seems that was shown many notes huh? Surreal. :blink: Fact, some things remain unexplained and very wrong in all this. :fear:

 

[Lisha]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Hi there Shila!

Well I stated back a few pages earlier that I had asked someone who I think is very knowledgable in the field and they said they have never heard of it!

So I asked permission and they said its ok to quote them. It was William Wagner and as far as Im concerned he has tons of experience when it comes to court cases and what goes on and what is said ....and he sure has an eye for detail about wording and things like this!

So he has NEVER heard of it!!!.... and he is currently looking into it, as he is just as puzzled as us about it!

He said he will do a video on it. So I will let you know what he comes up with. !

Hi! Thank you for this.

Fact, some things remain unexplained and very wrong in all this. :fear:

Fact, fact!

 

[jrsfan]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

THX That's the one with the Song Title D.I.E on it.

But, Milka was asking for the other note that said "Conrad in story"

By the way I notice too on the note above it says "To late to go back now" and then some other word begining with the letter V under it? Anybody know what that word is and what's that about, was it another song he was working on?

To me it looks like it says "covered in stones", not "Conrad in story" - could be wrong.

 

[bluetopez]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

To me it looks like it says "covered in stones", not "Conrad in story" - could be wrong.

HA I think ur right. Now that I see it again. LOL THX I wasn't sure what it said really cause of MJs awesome hand writting. tee heet

It was a believer who was saying what they thought it said. So I wasn't sure... sorry about the mix up guys. =(

Seems like MJ wanted to bling out some boots? lol Cool! Won't be the first time.

But, I am right about the song title D.I.E I wonder if he finished that and what it's all about?

 

[Gfresh]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

To me it looks like it says "covered in stones", not "Conrad in story" - could be wrong.

I see.. "Boots covered in stones"

 

[Gfresh]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I'm wondering if someone has already bought Pearl Jr's book/dvd

 

[Ape]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Yeah Ive never seen that one either. The best word I could make out for now is probably vacation or ?vocon?? (I googled that word and got an auction company)

EDIT: Here's another one from the MJHD forum.

That doesn't look like Conrad in Story to me, it looks like BOOTS covered in stones (as in rhinestones?). Too bad it's not typing instead of scribed.

EDIT : oops looks like I'm late on my observation.

 

[Lisha]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

^ Thank you for your post, Ape, for it is helpful to know more than one person sees something in the same way. I also read it as saying "covered" and also "stones."

And this is a good example of how believers have their feelers out so readily that they are in danger of seeing what they want to see at times to make things fit.

I'm not saying there have not been things out there that would fit that have not yet been disproven...Milka posted about the seal and that is interesting, and so far no good explanation for it having a different number of stars has surfaced yet. It would be appreciatd if someone, again credible, could explain that. And there have been lots like that in all of this.

Now one thing was recently explained during the trial...the Beverly Hills Hotel's address being on the screen of the ambulance indicating to believers that that is where the 901 call originated from, not the Carolwood address. However, it was pointed out in court that the Beverly Hills Hotel property is near/where? that area cellphone tower is located, and that is why that address came up in regards to the 901 call. So this is something that seemed like a "clue" that then ended up being explained away. True? Or has more been discovered regarding this?

 

[MJJ7777]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

Interesting Shila, I don't know about that though. But yeah that definitely reads "boots covered in stones" I originally thought it read "carved in stone".

 

[jrsfan]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

I'm wondering if someone has already bought Pearl Jr's book/dvd

Somebody way back in this thread did & said she had gotten her material from the believers. It was right after it came out.

 

[Miche]

Re: The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and other theories

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdc8XpIm41E&feature=uploademail