A conversation with a Los Angeles Homicide Detective

[Popescu]

Doctors should be held accountable for neglectful actions. No one wants to prosecute doctors, they're the perfect murderers.

Yes they should be. But the thing is that it's not a matter of "not wanting" to prosecute, but an inability to prove their mistakes or calculated acts.

 

[daisy]

I do not believe anyone beside Murray is involved thats bullcrap, but I do NOT trust the DA/LAPD

I agree with the bolded part.

This interview confirms it, and I do not really like Oxman, but his efforts could have been disregarded in a more neutral way than calling him an imbecille.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

[remember, malice aforethought is required for second degree murder]

no its not gross disregard implies malice cause of the the actions of the accused

 

[Rockin.]

Here you have the transcript from a conversation between a friend of mine, a lawyer from LA, has had yesterday with a woman who works on LAPD, on similar cases::clapping:

This evening I attended an event where, as we introduced ourselves, I found myself sitting next to a police detective who works for the Homicide Division of the Los Angeles Police Department located downtown. She said that the group that's working on the Murray case is located two offices down from her. (She herself works on cold cases.) Our conversation went something like this...

CC: Are you privy to the scuttlebutt going on in that division, like about the Conrad Murray case?

PD: Oh, yes. It's quite the topic of conversation around the water cooler and lunch room.

CC: Do you think that Murray is being charged with the appropriate crime? Are they going for the maximum charge?

PD: Definitely. There is no other charge that has as reasonable a likelihood of sticking.

CC: So second degree murder wouldn't stick?

PD: No. The burden of proof for malice aforethought is exacting, and it's highly unlikely, with the evidence they have, that it could be proven, even if the DA thinks there was any [malice], which he doesn't.

CC: Some fans think that maybe the DA doesn't have enough personal regard for Michael Jackson to pursue his killer more aggressively.

PD: Actually, it's quite the opposite. If the administration of propofol had happened to you or me, under the circumstances described, the matter would be brought before the appropriate medical board and that would be the end of it for Murray. It's because this happened to Michael Jackson that it's being pursued criminally at all. The DA wants to win this case, so he's not going to risk Murray going scot-free by pressing for a higher crime and then not winning.

CC: Well, the fans don't see it that way. They want him tried for murder.

PD: That's understandable, but what people think and what can be proven are two different things.

CC: And the family...

PD: Well, the family, of course, has an emotional investment in the outcome, so it's doubly hard for them to understand the legal technicalities involved. But, believe me, if the case didn't involve Michael Jackson, the matter wouldn't see the light of day criminally. It would all be handled civilly, with the family suing the doctor for wrongful death and that's it.

So there you have it, folks, from an insider.

CC: The fans want to know why the DA didn't charge Conrad Murray with second degree murder and then plea bargain to involuntary manslaughter to be sure to get Murray on something.

PD: We can't charge something that can't be proven [remember, malice aforethought is required for second degree murder] just for the heck of it so that we can plea down to involuntary. That's why the DA took so long [seven months] to charge Murray. There was a lot of work to be done to frame the case on a charge that's actually winable.

CC: The Jackson Family's lawyer, Brian Oxman, is trying to get Michael's fans to write letters to District Attorney Steve Cooley to pressure him to enhance the charges. Can a DA be influenced in this way?

PD: Absolutely, positively not. We go on the essence of the case, not on what outside parties think, even if there are thousands of outside parties. This lawyer has zero chance of influencing the District Attorney, no matter how many letters are written.

CC: How do you know you can't win on second degree murder?

PD: Well, first of all, the defendant has counsel, and his counsel knows that murder two can't be won, so on what basis can such a plea be bargained? "Uh, we're going to charge your client with a more severe crime [that we can't prove] so your client can plead down to involuntary. " It doesn't work that way. The DA's office has lots of conversations- -we call it 'trying the case in the office'--and District Attorney Cooley is confident of what he can win before he brings charges. Involuntary manslaughter is what the DA is reasonably certain he can win.

CC: What do you think of Oxman's efforts to get the fans involved?

PD: He sounds like an imbecile.

CC: Well, he's not very smart; we know that.

PD: A plea bargain always results in lower charges than that which the DA could get on a conviction, but we can't try all cases; there are just too many. While perfect justice would mandate a certain outcome, it's just not practical that all cases can be tried. This one's probably going to go to trial because it's high profile and the world is watching. If the case didn't involve Michael Jackson, it wouldn't be a criminal case at all. [This detective mentioned this last week.]

CC: Do you happen to know if Steve Cooley is a fan of Michael Jackson?

PD: No, I don't know know and, even if he was, that would have nothing to do with how he pursued the case against Murray.


***

So there you go. She never heard of Oxman (apparently doesn't watch tabloid television), but information that Oxman is trying to get the fans involved [see Oxman's alleged Facebook account] means he's an idiot.

Thank you for this.

I have heard though that in California at least, not sure if its the same elsewhere.. that for murder 2 'intent' is not necessary.. gross negligence shows malice..?

I said nobody will listen to fans who write in, I even worry that it will do damage.

 

[Naturelle]

If Katherine really is hiring private detectives, and she should they may be able to dig up a past history of Murrey either being incompetent, or prescribing inappopriately to wealthy patients. If he has had contact with any enemy of Michael for example. Murrey will be a marked man for the rest of his miserable life, he will always have to be looking over his shoulder.

I hope Katherine would hire the top of the line PI's, Like Da'wayne DOG Chapman. He is damn good and get's down to the nitty gritty without question.

 

[Naturelle]

I do not believe anyone beside Murray is involved thats bullcrap, but I do NOT trust the DA/LAPD

I never did and never will. What I don't get is, why would a LAPD be devulging information about the case? I just don't get it... *sighs*
Doctor's always cover themselves by asking the patient to sign a declaration which protects them should something go wrong during a surgery, (clause), I don't know it verbatum but I'm sure all of our fans in the medical profession can help me out with this. Basically, they want mediation to avoid problems if something does happen during any surgerical procedure. Anytime a doctor/nurse practioner penetrates the skin, it's considered a surgery.
I wonder if MURRAY had Michael sign his life away to this fool?

 

[Datsymay]

OK, I just returned from the recurring Tuesday night event I told y'all about last week and spoke again to the detective from the Cold Case Division of the LAPD. I'll try to recreate our conversation as best I remember it. :cheeky:

CC: The fans want to know why the DA didn't charge Conrad Murray with second degree murder and then plea bargain to involuntary manslaughter to be sure to get Murray on something.

PD: We can't charge something that can't be proven [remember, malice aforethought is required for second degree murder] just for the heck of it so that we can plea down to involuntary. That's why the DA took so long [seven months] to charge Murray. There was a lot of work to be done to frame the case on a charge that's actually winable.

CC: The Jackson Family's lawyer, Brian Oxman, is trying to get Michael's fans to write letters to District Attorney Steve Cooley to pressure him to enhance the charges. Can a DA be influenced in this way?

PD: Absolutely, positively not. We go on the essence of the case, not on what outside parties think, even if there are thousands of outside parties. This lawyer has zero chance of influencing the District Attorney, no matter how many letters are written.

CC: How do you know you can't win on second degree murder?

PD: Well, first of all, the defendant has counsel, and his counsel knows that murder two can't be won, so on what basis can such a plea be bargained? "Uh, we're going to charge your client with a more severe crime [that we can't prove] so your client can plead down to involuntary. " It doesn't work that way. The DA's office has lots of conversations- -we call it 'trying the case in the office'--and District Attorney Cooley is confident of what he can win before he brings charges. Involuntary manslaughter is what the DA is reasonably certain he can win.

CC: What do you think of Oxman's efforts to get the fans involved?

PD: He sounds like an imbecile.

CC: Well, he's not very smart; we know that.

PD: A plea bargain always results in lower charges than that which the DA could get on a conviction, but we can't try all cases; there are just too many. While perfect justice would mandate a certain outcome, it's just not practical that all cases can be tried. This one's probably going to go to trial because it's high profile and the world is watching. If the case didn't involve Michael Jackson, it wouldn't be a criminal case at all. [This detective mentioned this last week.]

CC: Do you happen to know if Steve Cooley is a fan of Michael Jackson?

PD: No, I don't know know and, even if he was, that would have nothing to do with how he pursued the case against Murray.

***

So there you go. She never heard of Oxman (apparently doesn't watch tabloid television), but information that Oxman is trying to get the fans involved [see Oxman's alleged Facebook account] means he's an idiot.

that is very unprofessional comment from the PD, he just lost my respect.l

 

[xthunderx2]

I hope Katherine would hire the top of the line PI's, Like Da'wayne DOG Chapman. He is damn good and get's down to the nitty gritty without question.

I agree but he is a bounty hunter...lmao...I watch him all the time..

 

[qbee]

well this police office hasnt read up on the law cause for murder 2 u dont need intent if it comes under gross disregard for human life. they need to be asked why they didnt go for murder 2 based on that definition. i presume cause they think the word murder will turn jurrors off

Its not the fact they couldnt charge with murder 2
its the fact they wouldnt get a jury to convict under murder 2
Just like Tom Mez said - They want a conviction _ with murder 2 its
more likely Murray will walk free _ there is enough to charge him with
that crime but not enough Facts for a jury to be able to convict him
of that crime ... All 12 willl not convict under that charge based on
the evidence ... Manslaughter is a more sure way to get a conviction
from the Jury for Murray

 

[elmoy]

I don't believe these conversations ever took place

 

[asandra]

I don't believe these conversations ever took place

Hello, elmoy.
I saw your 2 answers, and asked Catherine if she agrees to forward these emails to you. Please contact me on PM, to send my email adress and her contact details, to be able to speak directly with her.
You may see I am not trying to convince anyone. It is just one small piece we found in this hudge puzzle, and for us is a way to approach to the reality. Obviously we cannot depend on media, so every alternative information may us help in understanding what is going on.
And I would say that some words from here hurt me, especially caling names. We may see how those people from police see the rest of us.:doh:
Thank you, and no offence at all. :cheeky:

 

[Naturelle]

I agree but he is a bounty hunter...lmao...I watch him all the time..

lol, you are right. But I am certain he has a hell of a resource list of them all that are good!

 

[rainny]

The charge that means the " DOCTOR" chose to play roulette

with MJ's life knowingly in exchange of money should be the one,

whichever that is.

 

[eStyle]

So there you have it, folks, from an insider.

Thank you very much!
It makes sense to me!

^^ thanks. Basically, that's similar to what T-Mez said a couple of days ago. It's about what you can prove in court..

Yupp, this is normal, nothing wrong about it!
You can't just go and say that it was murder!... You have to prove it first!

 

[MJMAD1]

Here you have the transcript from a conversation between a friend of mine, a lawyer from LA, has had yesterday with a woman who works on LAPD, on similar cases::clapping:

This evening I attended an event where, as we introduced ourselves, I found myself sitting next to a police detective who works for the Homicide Division of the Los Angeles Police Department located downtown. She said that the group that's working on the Murray case is located two offices down from her. (She herself works on cold cases.) Our conversation went something like this...

CC: Are you privy to the scuttlebutt going on in that division, like about the Conrad Murray case?

PD: Oh, yes. It's quite the topic of conversation around the water cooler and lunch room.

CC: Do you think that Murray is being charged with the appropriate crime? Are they going for the maximum charge?

PD: Definitely. There is no other charge that has as reasonable a likelihood of sticking.

CC: So second degree murder wouldn't stick?

PD: No. The burden of proof for malice aforethought is exacting, and it's highly unlikely, with the evidence they have, that it could be proven, even if the DA thinks there was any [malice], which he doesn't.

CC: Some fans think that maybe the DA doesn't have enough personal regard for Michael Jackson to pursue his killer more aggressively.

PD: Actually, it's quite the opposite. If the administration of propofol had happened to you or me, under the circumstances described, the matter would be brought before the appropriate medical board and that would be the end of it for Murray. It's because this happened to Michael Jackson that it's being pursued criminally at all. The DA wants to win this case, so he's not going to risk Murray going scot-free by pressing for a higher crime and then not winning.

CC: Well, the fans don't see it that way. They want him tried for murder.

PD: That's understandable, but what people think and what can be proven are two different things.

CC: And the family...

PD: Well, the family, of course, has an emotional investment in the outcome, so it's doubly hard for them to understand the legal technicalities involved. But, believe me, if the case didn't involve Michael Jackson, the matter wouldn't see the light of day criminally. It would all be handled civilly, with the family suing the doctor for wrongful death and that's it.

So there you have it, folks, from an insider.

i actually believe most of this...it makes a let of sense. mez was right as always, just makes me so mad that doctors can almost just get away with it though!

 

[MicHil]

a woman from LAPD who worked with similar cases... and what might those cases be? a brief description of the cases she dealt with (apparently similar to mike's) would be nice.

If you can ask your friend to ask her again.... maybe?

plz and thank you!

 

[StaceyMJ]

WTF? Wouldn't be a criminal case at all? Watevs.

 

[xo_lola_xo]

I'd rather take manslaughter, 4 years in jail for Murray than 2nd degree murder charge and walking free.

So I'm good.

 

[lulu]

I'd rather take manslaughter, 4 years in jail for Murray than 2nd degree murder charge and walking free.

So I'm good.

I think so.. Unfortunately...
We want much more than 4 years..
It is only 4 years..
It is so unfair..

 

[Sophielo]

I'd rather take manslaughter, 4 years in jail for Murray than 2nd degree murder charge and walking free.

So I'm good.

That's how I feel. As much as I personally feel it should be murder 2 it will be very hard to convict a doctor of it. There's so much more chance of a conviction with IM than murder 2. What scares me most about this is that Murray will not even get jail time. No way is he getting 4 years, which is too light in itsef when his recklessness and stupidity caused a man's death.

 

[Naturelle]

That is why we should continue calling in to the DA's # insisting that he be given a harser sentence. Or do whatever we can to see that he never ever practices again. And to make sure MJ gets JUSTICE. I understand justice will never bring him back, however, MURRAY needs to be punished as harshley that the system will allow to send a clear message to other white collor crime doctors that they just need to stop and think before they act.
There needs to be a NEW law put into place for these medical professionals to stand by their oath which is 'Harm NO One', Or they will pay BIG TIME!!!

I know it is hard to do we if we band together, I'm sure we can come up with to put a new law in place for doctors and patient relationships.

They have been to many drug related deaths in the recent pass where pharmacies have gotten to careless when filing a perscription. This has to STOP! and it needs to STOP now.
Ok, i'm done ranting but as we here all know, we are pissed!!! to put it mildly.

 

[Beachlover]

I would be very worried if they made these charges harsher. I think he would walk away totally. It is one thing for all of us to want it, but it is quite another to ask an impartial jury who would hear all the facts and all the evidence and all of Michaels dirty laundry being paraded around to convict if it looks like a considerable doubt that it was actually murder.

Then what will everyone say? Oops?

 

[Beachlover]

I understand justice will never bring him back, however, MURRAY needs to be punished as harshley that the system will allow to send a clear message to other white collor crime doctors that they just need to stop and think before they act.
There needs to be a NEW law put into place for these medical professionals to stand by their oath which is 'Harm NO One', Or they will pay BIG TIME!!!

I know it is hard to do we if we band together, I'm sure we can come up with to put a new law in place for doctors and patient relationships.

They have been to many drug related deaths in the recent pass where pharmacies have gotten to careless when filing a perscription. This has to STOP! and it needs to STOP now.
Ok, i'm done ranting but as we here all know, we are pissed!!! to put it mildly.

I do agree with the medical part but there are two sides to this story also.

As a doctor, yes, they should be accountable for their actions. They should not get special treatment because they are a physician. I agree.

Laws and rules are getting tighter; but abuse is getting out of hand still. It is very hard when patients run from hospital to hospital or doctor to doctor asking for medications. Who is to say they are not having back pain? Who is to stop someone who is really in need of medication from getting it?

Suppose your mom, sister, brother, whatever is in the hospital and the man or woman in the next room is screaming in pain? It is disruptive to all the other patients and people KNOW full well how to play the system.

Patients who seek drugs know full well to go to the hospital and say they are having chest pain and won't be ignored. When the doctors catch on and discharge them they go to another facility.

So, yes, there needs to be better rules in place, but what will happen the day someone you love or even you, yourself needs something and they won't give it to you because they think you seek drugs?

Its very difficult really. You can go from pharmacy to pharmacy; doctor to doctor; hospital to hospital. Where do they draw the line?

Just some food for thought.

 

[souldreamer7]

I do agree with the medical part but there are two sides to this story also.

As a doctor, yes, they should be accountable for their actions. They should not get special treatment because they are a physician. I agree.

Laws and rules are getting tighter; but abuse is getting out of hand still. It is very hard when patients run from hospital to hospital or doctor to doctor asking for medications. Who is to say they are not having back pain? Who is to stop someone who is really in need of medication from getting it?

Suppose your mom, sister, brother, whatever is in the hospital and the man or woman in the next room is screaming in pain? It is disruptive to all the other patients and people KNOW full well how to play the system.

Patients who seek drugs know full well to go to the hospital and say they are having chest pain and won't be ignored. When the doctors catch on and discharge them they go to another facility.

So, yes, there needs to be better rules in place, but what will happen the day someone you love or even you, yourself needs something and they won't give it to you because they think you seek drugs?

Its very difficult really. You can go from pharmacy to pharmacy; doctor to doctor; hospital to hospital. Where do they draw the line?

Just some food for thought.

It's also 'messed-up' because in alot of cases the addict gets the meds. before the real ill person..because it's so out of hand the dr.'s can't tell which is which..happens alot in cases of a rare illness I know. so sick ppl. often suffer without proper pain managment because of scammers.

 

[Beachlover]

It's also 'messed-up' because in alot of cases the addict gets the meds. before the real ill person..because it's so out of hand the dr.'s can't tell which is which..happens alot in cases of a rare illness I know. so sick ppl. often suffer without proper pain managment because of scammers.

That may be true too. I do know what happens in the case of people abusing the system is that the companies who have to pay for it become more and more 'tight' with their pay out of claims and they make it harder for people to get what they need.

This is why the rich seem to get what they want so much easier and those are the high profile cases. In the end, it is the person who is dependent on their insurance carrier who gets rejected and those are the ones who need it the most due to real illness. This is a big part of the health care dilemma in this country going on right now.

 

[elmoy]

Hello, elmoy.
I saw your 2 answers, and asked Catherine if she agrees to forward these emails to you. Please contact me on PM, to send my email adress and her contact details, to be able to speak directly with her.
You may see I am not trying to convince anyone. It is just one small piece we found in this hudge puzzle, and for us is a way to approach to the reality. Obviously we cannot depend on media, so every alternative information may us help in understanding what is going on.
And I would say that some words from here hurt me, especially caling names. We may see how those people from police see the rest of us.:doh:
Thank you, and no offence at all. :cheeky:

No offence taken. The cool thing about truth is that it doesn't change whether someone believes it or not. If that conversation took place and your contact is interested in getting their word out, a public forum might be a more appropriate way of doing so. Thanks though.

 

[MicHil]

a woman from LAPD who worked with similar cases... and what might those cases be? a brief description of the cases she dealt with (apparently similar to mike's) would be nice.

If you can ask your friend to ask her again.... maybe?

plz and thank you!

i wanna ask this again, one more time.

 

[Autumn II]

At first, media reported that "Michael was an addict." These reports ranged from so-called "friends," to those who speculated. The toxicology report proved this not to be the case, so I hope this issue can be closed now?

Michael had genuine pain for a lot of his adult-life, and that he used painkillers sometimes was only reasonable, given his situation. They are highly addictive, and I'm sure he tried to strike a balance between managing his pain, and physical addiction. He was NOT a "junkie," as some on media tried to portray. The tox report showed that he was "clean," and there was no organ damage as one might expect from a drug-abuser.

Did anyone here SEE the video of the accident he had when the bridge collapsed and he was plunged many feet into the orchestra pit? He finished the show, which was amazing. He then went directly to the hospital, for a back-injury that plagued him ever since. We need to have some compassion for this? Please?

 

[rainny]

Did anyone here SEE the video of the accident he had when the bridge collapsed and he was plunged many feet into the orchestra pit? He finished the show, which was amazing. He then went directly to the hospital, for a back-injury that plagued him ever since. We need to have some compassion for this? Please?

HERE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CnZpcwm0FM

 

[asandra]

No offence taken. The cool thing about truth is that it doesn't change whether someone believes it or not. If that conversation took place and your contact is interested in getting their word out, a public forum might be a more appropriate way of doing so. Thanks though.

Hi again! This forum already exists, it's called Vindication Better Than Tribute, and it's working as a discussion group on yahoo. Here we try hard to find solutions and ways to urge people like Bashir to reveal the true facts, and I say this in very few words 'cause it's a way too large subject for this answer. We develop a website, mjtruthnow.com, where you may find some of our steps and ideas.
Catherine is the moderator here, and the group was opened until dec last year. The decision to be closed was taken following some difficult situation between few members, so it looked better to prevent things like that... I am not sure I remember very well, as long as I am part of more projects and I've always looked for the positive side. :better:
Anyway, you if would like to join this group, I can simply send you an invitation.
Well, one of the main ideas where we trully need everybody's help is to prepare a global boycott. You can find more details here:
http://mjtruthnow.com/make-that-change/newsletter-2/
We are interested too in understanding how laws are passed, and to find steps in vindicating Michael's work, name and personality.
Thanks for your input and see you soon! :cheeky: