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Murray Trial - 7 October - Day 9 - Discussion

claudiadoina said:
I hate that some of you keep saying that his bedroom and bathroom were a mess.If we are talking like this here I am really worried about what media will say.:nooo:

I very much doubt that all of us are keeping our houses very clean and neat all the time.
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Exactly Claudiadoina!

I looked around my own room (although no where as big as Michaels hehe) at the time yesterday when everyone was talking about the mess, and there's clothes on the the floor, papers thrown on top of my cabinet and a small empty desert pot :lol: if someone were to take a photo of my room then, people would wonder too. :mello:
 
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Soundmind said:
does "long enough period" equal ten minutes or a bit?
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Well he gave him 25mg and we know how long that lasts so we know how long approx he watched him for.whether that be 4 mins or 6 mins.bit it was certainly no more than 10
 
Todays been a really bad day after hearing that interview yesterday.its really got to me
 
I don't understand what the fight is all about. Are we debating CM lies? Because no matter what the defense's theory will be, at this point there is no reasonable doubt that CM stated he injected 25 mg (any expert or not will testify that this is NOT enough to achieve sedation, the minimum amount is 1 mg/kilo) and that the amount found in Michael's body is about ten times higher. Same goes for Lorazepam.

While we're at it, why would he lie that he administered Propofol for every night except the last three - this is an old debate I had with Soundmind. It is my belief that he used all the amount of propofol that he ordered, and this correlates with the fact that he had no options in getting his hands on the stuff in England (Susan Etok). That's almost 4 gallons of Propofol and it is shocking.
Shocking because he did that. And shocking because the patient survived for so long under these circumstances.

And he may not be a sociopath. I'm uncomfortable when people write stuff like burning in hell and such, I don't know why. But he sure is guilty of extreme disregard for human life. And as I said before, there's little justice in the maximum penalty that the prosecution elected to go for.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Todays been a really bad day after hearing that interview yesterday.its really got to me
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I'm so sorry!
I am a repressed type of person, and I thought I was handling it, when I found myself searching youtube for Michael's videos. It's been a while since I did that, I think I did it in June. I don't usually listen to any kind of music nowadays. And it brought tears to my eyes, tears of relief and of joy. No matter how his life ended, too soon and so tragically, he had times when he enjoyed himself and was happy. And we were lucky enough to be able to call him "our Michael"...
 
It seems like shooting yourself in the foot to hear Murray say that MJ was seeing other doctors but he never shared that with him!! So he then goes on to prescribe to MJ himself not knowing if what he precribes could be working against other meds?? Crazy.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Todays been a really bad day after hearing that interview yesterday.its really got to me
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:hug: We are always here for you.
Popescu said:
I'm so sorry!
I am a repressed type of person, and I thought I was handling it, when I found myself searching youtube for Michael's videos. It's been a while since I did that, I think I did it in June. I don't usually listen to any kind of music nowadays. And it brought tears to my eyes, tears of relief and of joy. No matter how his life ended, too soon and so tragically, he had times when he enjoyed himself and was happy. And we were lucky enough to be able to call him "our Michael"...
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:hug: always here for you too.
 
And shocking because the patient survived for so long under these circumstances.
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You really believe MJ survived for two month being hooked for 10 hours daily to propofol drip ?

It's not shocking it's impossible !!! He was lucky the first hour , the first day, ok he was lucky the second hour , the third day but he was lucky to survive for more than two months and die eventually from an AVERAGE dose injected by a syringe !!!!!!!! come on


He said mj told him not to leave anything around , why did he have that empty 1000mg vial still there from a previous session ? he did not use it that day, the concentrations in MJ's body does not reflect that .

In my opinion Murray is going to jail, he lied about everything and is a proven liar , he has no credibility the defence lost the case before the prosecutors even put the coroner and the propofol expert on the stand .
White can say whatever he wants , but he would never dare to excuse Murray's admission in his interview that he gave MJ an INTIAL dose of 50mg and used a propofol drip on daily basis . That's enough to convict him .
As far as I'm concerned Murray's conviction is a matter of time.
 
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Soundmind said:
You really believe MJ survived for two month being hooked for 10 hours daily to propofol drip ?

It's not shocking it's impossible !!! He was lucky the first hour , the first day, ok he was lucky the second hour , the third day but he was lucky to survive for more than two months and die eventually from an AVERAGE dose injected by a syringe !!!!!!!! come on


He said mj told him not to leave anything around , why did he have that empty 1000mg vila still there from a previous session ? he did not use it that day, the concentrations in MJ's body does not reflect that .
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For that day, I guess we'll have to wait for the experts testimonies. For all the other days, yes, this is my personal opinion.
As for that particular day, in Chernoff's words... "it was a perfect storm".Why would an event that consisted in the death of a human being be characterized as perfect, I don't know.



Thank you, xthunderx2!
For everyone that is having a rough time, maybe this will help just a little bit :hug:

 
8701girl said:
Are u kidding me!? yeh right so much so that he didnt watch his patient (mj) while being under the influnce of propofol and another patient felt abandoned by murray!
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When I said he had a good relationship, I was talking about the patients who spoke highly of him. Even the DA didn't argue that Murray have a good/caring relationship with his patients and that's how he earned their trust. If Michael knew half of what we know about Murray, you do believe he would put himself in a position where he would be at Murray utter mercy and unable to defend himself?

Once again, read my posts in context and stop isolating everything.
 
soulmum said:
It seems like shooting yourself in the foot to hear Murray say that MJ was seeing other doctors but he never shared that with him!! So he then goes on to prescribe to MJ himself not knowing if what he precribes could be working against other meds?? Crazy.
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He didnt know mj hads drs but he knew all their names. strange that
 
Thanks for all the updates. I am somewhat caught up but it's so difficult, there is so much information. I really hate that I cannot listen to the trial while I'm at work except for on my lunch hours. I plan to take a day off from work soon just to watch and focus on the trial all day.

Question...will the temperature of the bedroom be mentioned at all? I remember it was reported in the early days of Michael's death that the bedroom where he was in was kept extremely warm. It may not be relevant to anything in the trial but I'm curious about it.
 
suzynyc said:
Thanks for all the updates. I am somewhat caught up but it's so difficult, there is so much information. I really hate that I cannot listen to the trial while I'm at work except for on my lunch hours. I plan to take a day off from work soon just to watch and focus on the trial all day.

Question...will the temperature of the bedroom be mentioned at all? I remember it was reported in the early days of Michael's death that the bedroom where he was in was kept extremely warm. It may not be relevant to anything in the trial but I'm curious about it.
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I don't think we know yet, if the temperature will be mentioned? If so, it would be in the context of time-of-death, which hasn't been definitively determined. I did notice in the photographs of the room where Murray was "treating" Michael, that a fireplace was blazing, so it must have been hot in the room. Not sure if it will be a part of testimony, or not?
 
From Alberto's testimony:

"June 24th. After 5 PM they took MJ to rehearsals. AA made sure everything was in order in MJ green room (dressing room) such as arranging the room temperature, checked the venue for security."

It's not in the summary, but I think I remember that he said Michael always wanted it warm in the green room. That's the only time I remember hearing about room temperature, and it's not about the bedroom.
 
to me I think that Murray's testimony was FARRR to rehearsed....and then when Chernoff chimed in with his crap it made it even worse..Chernoff is a cocky bastard with no personality in my opinion. Murray used words like "carefully" when he was speaking of administering the bolus injections of the benzo's. Then he talked about a "bolus injection" to gt MJ to sleep...then he talked about "a drip" to keep Michael alseep....THAT to me is the smoking gun right there. Murray said that was the way he did it and then he was "trying to wean" Michael off the propofol...by giving him more of the benzo's instead...and in larger doses than he previously had. I think that night Murray started with the benzos...and DID give Michael the bolus of the propofol...but I think he STILL gave him the "drip" as he had done on previous nights. No matter WHAT Murray has confessed to..it is totally obvious that what DID happen that night is NOT the way Murray says it did in his statement. Michael had a WHOLE lot more propofol in his body than Murray wants to admit. The coroners report and the tox report is proof of this. All we have seen and heard from the defense is lies...and cover up. It started from the beginning with Murray's taped confession that we heard yesterday. They will continue to try and paint Michael as the addict and Murray trying to be a savoir. HE made me sick with his statement, Michael should NOT be the one on trial here,,,he is the victim...Murray IS the murderer.
 
Autumn II said:
I don't think we know yet, if the temperature will be mentioned? If so, it would be in the context of time-of-death, which hasn't been definitively determined. I did notice in the photographs of the room where Murray was "treating" Michael, that a fireplace was blazing, so it must have been hot in the room. Not sure if it will be a part of testimony, or not?
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Thanks, I just took another look at the photo. To me it's just odd to have a fireplace going in late June in Los Angeles since I can't stand excess heat or being too warm. Makes me cringe actually, lol. Oh Michael.
 
Milka said:
From Alberto's testimony:

"June 24th. After 5 PM they took MJ to rehearsals. AA made sure everything was in order in MJ green room (dressing room) such as arranging the room temperature, checked the venue for security."

It's not in the summary, but I think I remember that he said Michael always wanted it warm in the green room. That's the only time I remember hearing about room temperature, and it's not about the bedroom.
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Thanks!
 
xthunderx2 said:
to me I think that Murray's testimony was FARRR to rehearsed....and then when Chernoff chimed in with his crap it made it even worse..Chernoff is a cocky bastard with no personality in my opinion. Murray used words like "carefully" when he was speaking of administering the bolus injections of the benzo's. Then he talked about a "bolus injection" to gt MJ to sleep...then he talked about "a drip" to keep Michael alseep....THAT to me is the smoking gun right there. Murray said that was the way he did it and then he was "trying to wean" Michael off the propofol...by giving him more of the benzo's instead...and in larger doses than he previously had. I think that night Murray started with the benzos...and DID give Michael the bolus of the propofol...but I think he STILL gave him the "drip" as he had done on previous nights. No matter WHAT Murray has confessed to..it is totally obvious that what DID happen that night is NOT the way Murray says it did in his statement. Michael had a WHOLE lot more propofol in his body than Murray wants to admit. The coroners report and the tox report is proof of this. All we have seen and heard from the defense is lies...and cover up. It started from the beginning with Murray's taped confession that we heard yesterday. They will continue to try and paint Michael as the addict and Murray trying to be a savoir. HE made me sick with his statement, Michael should NOT be the one on trial here,,,he is the victim...Murray IS the murderer.
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Well, of course Murray's statement was rehearsed. That is what attorneys are FOR? Problem is, it looks like he lied to his attorneys, too. Especially about the "no phones working," not understanding that the police could easily retrieve his phone records!

I think that Chernoff et al are doing what is to be expected? Dirty job, though. They really don't have any material to work with OTHER than to "blame the victim." So far, Pastor is doing a pretty good job of limiting that type of questioning?

Our medical experts could confirm, but I think there is a big difference between "a drip" and an "injection or bolus?" With a continuous drip, amounts are carefully calibrated to drip at a regular and chosen speed/amount. What Murray called "a drip" was actually a bolus, infused slowly, and by hand? With NO calibration, other than the amount in the syringe?
 
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Michael was skinny and many skinny persons feel they are cold and want to be warm.
 
MIST said:
Michael was skinny and many skinny persons feel they are cold and want to be warm.
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But usually not in the end of June in California. Most people at that time would have their AC going, not a fireplace.
 
saveNRG said:
But usually not in the end of June in California. Most people at that time would have their AC going, not a fireplace.
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True.. I believe MJ's immune system was shutting down because of all the propofol/sedatives Murray was giving him. Those drugs were negatively affecting MJ and was making him sick. He was getting sick and no one, including his own doctor, did anything about it
 
jaydom7 said:
True.. I believe MJ's immune system was shutting down because of all the propofol/sedatives Murray was giving him. Those drugs were negatively affecting MJ and was making him sick. He was getting sick and no one, including his own doctor, did anything about it
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Propofol doesn't shut your immune system down, neither does the other sedatives. The autopsy also said nothing about a flawed immune system or an increase white blood cells. Since Michael has a history of liking his room hot, it's impossible to say whether or not the room was hot by choice or by Murray. There are some people who like their room hot and I know people who don't turn the AC on even when it's close to 100 degrees outside.

There's also the fact that Michael wasn't sick at all on his last two days.
 
jaydom7 said:
True.. I believe MJ's immune system was shutting down because of all the propofol/sedatives Murray was giving him. Those drugs were negatively affecting MJ and was making him sick. He was getting sick and no one, including his own doctor, did anything about it
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Good observation! Apparently anesthesia does have a significant effect on the immune system. See below (and there are other studies that confirm, as well). It was MURRAY who was affecting Michael's health -- and not protecting it, as he should. I wonder if Murray was even AWARE of these studies about the effects of anesthesia on the immune system? Probably NOT!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }h1 { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 24pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-weight: bold; }h3 { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-weight: bold; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }p { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }span.Heading1Char { font-family: Times; font-weight: bold; }span.Heading3Char { font-family: Times; font-weight: bold; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2583752

[h=1]Effect of anesthesia on the immune system: suppression of the immunogenic capacity of macrophages and of lymphocyte transformation.[/h] Dagan O, Segal S, Tzehoval E.
[h=3]Source[/h] Department of Pediatrics A, Kaplan Hospital, Rehovot, Israel.
[h=3]Abstract[/h] Experiments were carried out aimed at investigating the effects of anesthesia without surgery on certain functional components of the immune system. We observed that the immunogenic antigen-presenting capacity of mouse peritoneal macrophages was significantly reduced one week post-anesthesia, with either injected or inhaled anesthetic drugs. On the other hand, an augmentation of the phagocytic activities of these macrophages was manifested. Hence, the impaired immunogenic potency could not be attributed to a reduced antigen uptake. Lymphocyte transformations, i.e., response to PHA and Con A were suppressed, whereas the response to LPS was augmented.

PMID:
2583752
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
I am hoping the pharmacologist/anesthesiologist who is scheduled to testify will focus on the effects of someone having sedatives and propofol daily and how much damage it was causing. When Mike was talking of chills and folks were seeing dramatic weight loss, someone should've taken him to the hospital. Murray was slowly killing MJ. He had to have known that giving MJ all of that crap daily could not have been good for him. He didn't care. He was telling everyone that MJ was fine and healthy. That man makes me sick. He deserves much more than 4 years in prison
 
xthunderx2 said:
to me I think that Murray's testimony was FARRR to rehearsed....and then when Chernoff chimed in with his crap it made it even worse..Chernoff is a cocky bastard with no personality in my opinion. Murray used words like "carefully" when he was speaking of administering the bolus injections of the benzo's. Then he talked about a "bolus injection" to gt MJ to sleep...then he talked about "a drip" to keep Michael alseep....THAT to me is the smoking gun right there. Murray said that was the way he did it and then he was "trying to wean" Michael off the propofol...by giving him more of the benzo's instead...and in larger doses than he previously had. I think that night Murray started with the benzos...and DID give Michael the bolus of the propofol...but I think he STILL gave him the "drip" as he had done on previous nights. No matter WHAT Murray has confessed to..it is totally obvious that what DID happen that night is NOT the way Murray says it did in his statement. Michael had a WHOLE lot more propofol in his body than Murray wants to admit. The coroners report and the tox report is proof of this. All we have seen and heard from the defense is lies...and cover up. It started from the beginning with Murray's taped confession that we heard yesterday. They will continue to try and paint Michael as the addict and Murray trying to be a savoir. HE made me sick with his statement, Michael should NOT be the one on trial here,,,he is the victim...Murray IS the murderer.
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:clapping:
 
claudiadoina said:
I hate that some of you keep saying that his bedroom and bathroom were a mess.If we are talking like this here I am really worried about what media will say.:nooo:

I very much doubt that all of us are keeping our houses very clean and neat all the time.
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It might have been a bit messy but it should show people who don't know Michael how much of a reader he was. How much he craved knowledge and enlightenment. And that's always a good thing. Seeing that room, my heart fills with such adoration and love that even I didn't know I had toward Michael. And I've loved him for a while now.
 
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