Murray's manslaughter charge hangs on voicemail evidence

[elusive moonwalker]

Btw is ti possible to "addict" to propofol ?

not physically no.

 

[sophie]

Mj felt propofol was the only way he could sleep

there is no reason to think mj was dependent on propofol. by all we know he had not used this drug in years.

murray's claim he was trying to wean mj off propofol cannot be taken seriously imo. it was the drugs he allegedly used to "wean off" which could have been a potential problem in terms of building an addiction. namely lorazepam.

i have many questions why murray was using lorazepam along with propofol. i do not believe his version at all.


- how come murray gave a propofol BOLUS? no propofol was found in the long iv tube or in the iv bag. no signs murray had administered propofol by continous iv drip as its done for longtime sedation. he did not have the equipment ready needed to administer this drug for longtime sedation. but what was the use of a propofol bolus when mj wanted to rest and needed to be sedated for hours?

- why did murray administer a lorazepam shot apparently shortly before mj died? lorazepam is a very addictive substance and it seems to be the kind of substance mj was trying to avoid by using propofol instead. how come mj ended up being given lorazepam AND propofol? murray's explanation for the presence of lorazepam seems ridiculous, and his claim he gave lorazepam hours before the propofol bolus cannot be true bc lorazepam was not found in the liver and urine, only in the blood. to me this indicates lorazepam was given shortly before mj died, not hours earlier.

- what is the point of giving a propofol bolus if a lorazepam shot is administered as well? a propofol bolus wears off after 10min. a lorazepam shot holds out for at least 1 or 2 hours as far as i know. why did murray bother to give a propofol bolus if he planned to sedate mj with lorazepam anyway?

- did murray ever plan to use propofol for longtime sedation? or had his plan been all along to sedate mj with lorazepam and similar drugs and only give his patient an occasional propofol bolus for "show" effects bc this was the hospital drug mj was requesting and the reason why murray was paid 150k per month to administer this drug under controlled conditions similar to the way it would be given in a clinical setting?

- was mj aware that propofol very likely was not the drug meant to be used for longtime sedation on june 25? did he know the propofol bolus murray gave him would wear off after 10min, but the other substance injected was a highly addicitve benzodiazepine which would do the "real job" and keep him sedated for hours?

these are questions i hope will be answered during trial.

 

[daisy]

sophie I can only say, that IMO all of your questions are valid, and especially about propofol "addiction", lorazepam and bolus injection vs IV tube and bag
the results show that lorazepam was given MUCh more shortly before Michael died.

However, i think we shoudl also consider, if not be almost sure that the results hat are given to the public are NOT complete and perhaps critical pieces of data are kept until they are disclosed in court at the right time.

 

[Soundmind]

sophie , I have to agree with everyword . By the way lorazepam was not even traced in hospital blood , it was detected in his heart blood , which means the blood obtained from the heart during the autopsy . I don't know what that means medically , but it is really very very VERY odd that lorazepam concentration were not determined or deteced in his blood

 

[sophie]

i think we shoudl also consider, if not be almost sure that teh results hat are given to teh public are NOT complete and perhaps critical pieces of data are kept until they are disclosed in court at the right time

i agree they are holding back a lot of information. but would they release evidence regarding iv equipment used together with propofol, but still hold back part of the same kind of evidence? if murray gave propofol by iv drip there must have been a long iv tube somewhere with propofol in it, and for some reason they are holding back this information even though at the same time they release evidence that propofol was found in a short iv tube going to a y connector.

i guess we'll have to wait till prelim to know the answer.

 

[daisy]

i agree they are holding back a lot of information. but would they release evidence regarding iv equipment used together with propofol, but still hold back part of the same kind of evidence? if murray gave propofol by iv drip there must have been a long iv tube somewhere with propofol in it, and for some reason they are holding back this information even though at the same time they release evidence that propofol was found in a short iv tube going to a y connector.

i guess we'll have to wait till prelim to know the answer.

Yes, IF he did it this way at all.

 

[sophie]

By the way lorazepam was not even traced in hospital blood , it was detected in his heart blood

it was also found in femoral blood. i dont understand either why it wasnt found in the hospital blood. sometimes after death a drug redistributes in the body, but from what i read this is not the case with lorazepam. they usually use femoral blood bc its the most reliable place to get the real drug concentration within the blood postmortem. the concentration of lorazepam in femoral blood was not much different from the concentration found in heart blood.

heart blood: 0.162
femoral blood: 0.169

 

[daisydaisy]

sophie , I have to agree with everyword . By the way lorazepam was not even traced in hospital blood , it was detected in his heart blood , which means the blood obtained from the heart during the autopsy . I don't know what that means medically , but it is really very very VERY odd that lorazepam concentration were not determined or deteced in his blood

As far as I can tell the hospital blood drugs panel did not test for lorazepam. If they tested for it and did not find it, it would have been stated as ND ie not detected.

 

[sophie]

As far as I can tell the hospital blood drugs panel did not test for lorazepam. If they tested for it and did not find it, it would have been stated as ND ie not detected.

in this case it could also mean they found lorazepam in the liver but for some reason held this information back? so seems we cannot be sure lorazepam was given shortly before mj died. i was going by lorazepam not showing up in the liver and urine

 

[BabeBeMine]

there is no reason to think mj was dependent on propofol. by all we know he had not used this drug in years.

murray's claim he was trying to wean mj off propofol cannot be taken seriously imo. it was the drugs he allegedly used to "wean off" which could have been a potential problem in terms of building an addiction. namely lorazepam.

i have many questions why murray was using lorazepam along with propofol. i do not believe his version at all.


- how come murray gave a propofol BOLUS? no propofol was found in the long iv tube or in the iv bag. no signs murray had administered propofol by continous iv drip as its done for longtime sedation. he did not have the equipment ready needed to administer this drug for longtime sedation. but what was the use of a propofol bolus when mj wanted to rest and needed to be sedated for hours?

- why did murray administer a lorazepam shot apparently shortly before mj died? lorazepam is a very addictive substance and it seems to be the kind of substance mj was trying to avoid by using propofol instead. how come mj ended up being given lorazepam AND propofol? murray's explanation for the presence of lorazepam seems ridiculous, and his claim he gave lorazepam hours before the propofol bolus cannot be true bc lorazepam was not found in the liver and urine, only in the blood. to me this indicates lorazepam was given shortly before mj died, not hours earlier.

- what is the point of giving a propofol bolus if a lorazepam shot is administered as well? a propofol bolus wears off after 10min. a lorazepam shot holds out for at least 1 or 2 hours as far as i know. why did murray bother to give a propofol bolus if he planned to sedate mj with lorazepam anyway?

- did murray ever plan to use propofol for longtime sedation? or had his plan been all along to sedate mj with lorazepam and similar drugs and only give his patient an occasional propofol bolus for "show" effects bc this was the hospital drug mj was requesting and the reason why murray was paid 150k per month to administer this drug under controlled conditions similar to the way it would be given in a clinical setting?

- was mj aware that propofol very likely was not the drug meant to be used for longtime sedation on june 25? did he know the propofol bolus murray gave him would wear off after 10min, but the other substance injected was a highly addicitve benzodiazepine which would do the "real job" and keep him sedated for hours?

these are questions i hope will be answered during trial.

lorazepam and other drugs were given to MJ before propofol maybe in a attempt to try something else to get MJ to sleep. Maybe Dr Murray felt propofol was to dangerous and was trying something else the whole night and early morning. When MJ could not sleep even with all that then thats when MJ maybe asked for the propofol.

Dr Murray should have told MJ i have already given you other drugs in a attempt to get you some sleep which have not worked. It is not safe to administer propofol right after giving you these drugs throught the night. Mr jackson im sorry but i cant give this drug to you right now. If MJ is upset, pissed off, who cares at least he's alive.

How do we know how MJ asked for it? We don't know MJ's personality behind closed doors. Maybe he was like look Dr Murray i can get someone else in here by tomorrow and pay them 150,000 a month or look im paying this amount for you to take care of me.

Even had that happen, considering all the other drugs Dr Murray tried he should have said no Mr jackson. We can try the propofol again later tonight when you get back from rehearsel once the other drugs are out the body.

 

[sophie]

lorazepam and other drugs were given to MJ before propofol maybe in a attempt to try something else to get MJ to sleep

this is what murray claims, but i think the evidence will show it didnt happen like this. we have to wait for the prosecution to reveal their whole case to know

 

[Soundmind]

As far as I can tell the hospital blood drugs panel did not test for lorazepam. If they tested for it and did not find it, it would have been stated as ND ie not detected.

he told them he gave lorazepam , they must have tested for it .

 

[sophie]

he told them he gave lorazepam , this must have tested for it .

its actually not in the report, soundmind. i just checked the detailed laboratory reports on p41-p48 and realized they omitted lorazepam for everything except for femoral and heart blood. i also couldnt find anything on used syringes containing lorazepam or used lorazepam vials. they only give the amount of lorazepam vials found in section 3a (p.8), but nothing about used/open/empty vials. seems they are holding all this info back on lorazepm

 

[RockWithMichael4eva]

Please stick to facts and don't throw accusations at Dr Murray from tabloids that isn't even true.

And for all who say that is defending him, dream on.

How are you SO certain of all the "FACTS" on what is true and what isn't when it comes to Murray all the time?

Secondly, nevermind what I post about, You post what you feel, I will post what I feel.

KEEP IT MOVING!

 

[Naturelle]

this is what murray claims, but i think the evidence will show it didnt happen like this. we have to wait for the prosecution to reveal their whole case to know

Which makes me think they will not offer any "plea". If they do, it could be a riot's all over the world, especially here in this city. I'm just sayin. this man is getting perferential treatment which stinks so much more than sh!t!

 

[ensleyave]

lorazepam and other drugs were given to MJ before propofol maybe in a attempt to try something else to get MJ to sleep. Maybe Dr Murray felt propofol was to dangerous and was trying something else the whole night and early morning. When MJ could not sleep even with all that then thats when MJ maybe asked for the propofol.

Dr Murray should have told MJ i have already given you other drugs in a attempt to get you some sleep which have not worked. It is not safe to administer propofol right after giving you these drugs throught the night. Mr jackson im sorry but i cant give this drug to you right now. If MJ is upset, pissed off, who cares at least he's alive.

How do we know how MJ asked for it? We don't know MJ's personality behind closed doors. Maybe he was like look Dr Murray i can get someone else in here by tomorrow and pay them 150,000 a month or look im paying this amount for you to take care of me.

Even had that happen, considering all the other drugs Dr Murray tried he should have said no Mr jackson. We can try the propofol again later tonight when you get back from rehearsel once the other drugs are out the body.

Once again, I ask you without all of your speculation and what ifs and MJ' attitude behind closed doors. What proof do you have that he said Dr. Murray give me more propofol? This is my last time asking this question because evidently you cannot answer it.

 

[TheChosenOne]

lorazepam and other drugs were given to MJ before propofol maybe in a attempt to try something else to get MJ to sleep. Maybe Dr Murray felt propofol was to dangerous and was trying something else the whole night and early morning. When MJ could not sleep even with all that then thats when MJ maybe asked for the propofol.

Dr Murray should have told MJ i have already given you other drugs in a attempt to get you some sleep which have not worked. It is not safe to administer propofol right after giving you these drugs throught the night. Mr jackson im sorry but i cant give this drug to you right now. If MJ is upset, pissed off, who cares at least he's alive.

How do we know how MJ asked for it? We don't know MJ's personality behind closed doors. Maybe he was like look Dr Murray i can get someone else in here by tomorrow and pay them 150,000 a month or look im paying this amount for you to take care of me.

Even had that happen, considering all the other drugs Dr Murray tried he should have said no Mr jackson. We can try the propofol again later tonight when you get back from rehearsel once the other drugs are out the body.

I feel we are better off not putting too much credence in Conrad Murray's statements and building our conjecture from there.

The fact is, as you said, we do not know what happened behind closed door. But one person in this equation has the advantage. He can tell his version of events. In light of his other statements, I am going to wait and see what comes out in court before I give any credit to what Murray purports to have happened.

Wow! This is the first time I have EVER quoted a post. I did it! I did it!!!

 

[Soundmind]

or Dr.Murray wanted to leave MJ , did not feel that 150.000 a month was enough to keep him beside MJ all night , so he decided to give him something medically is not less dangerous , nor more helpful.

I can't understand why people give Murray the benefit of the doubt , and they try to blame MJ and excuse murray .

MJ wanted a treatment to his insomnia , giving him ephedrine and energy drinks was the last thing he needed, prescribing temazepam was the last thing he needed , prescribing the highly addictive lorazepam to someone that suffered insomnia for decades was the last thing MJ needed, how come MJ would have been able to perform after being injected with lorazepam ? Murray was creating the stage for a disaster

 

[Autumn II]

We've strayed pretty far from "voicemail?" I'm just sayin'.

For those who call for sticking to "facts," well sure. Good idea. There are some. Let me tell you what are NOT facts? Anything that Murray SAID happened is not a fact. It's just what he said, and he's the person accused of a serious crime. Michael is not here to give his version. Murray has already been caught in many inconsistencies, i.e. changes in the timeline. Well, oops?

What was Michael like behind closed doors? Actually, he was like the character in Thriller? His eyes turned cat-like and he was really, really, MEAN! Or, he was the same Michael so many of us love? Which is more likely behavior for this gentle soul? Demanding things of Dr. Murray, or something entirely different was the case? We should not assume Michael EVER "begged for propofol." We do not know if that happened, at all, and that is not a "fact," all-over-the-place statements by Nurse Lee, regardless. Let's see what she has to say under oath?

 

[DARKLIGHTDAN]

thanks for this

 

[BabeBeMine]

Once again, I ask you without all of your speculation and what ifs and MJ' attitude behind closed doors. What proof do you have that he said Dr. Murray give me more propofol? This is my last time asking this question because evidently you cannot answer it.

There is no actual proof, but common sense, your paying this doctor 150,000 and you want this Dr ONLY. AEG offered MJ other options when it came to doctors that might have been much cheaper but MJ insisted on Dr Murray. To me this tells me Murray was willing to give MJ what he wanted.

The fact that MJ asked for it before and after the other drugs did not work, i believe he asked for it. This is where Dr Murray should have had the proper equipment and stayed by MJ's side.

Nobody is defending Murray here, i just don't think it was his idea to go with propofol because he was trying other things the entire night. Obviously he was trying not to go that route.

 

[eStyle]

MJ was not a drug addict but he was still a addict if that makes sense. Mj felt propofol was the only way he could sleep and that was it. Thats a addict feeling that there is no other solution and he knew it was not the right way to get sleep.

In the morning of June 25 when MJ demanded the propofol. Thats a addict who feels there is no other way to get sleep. He needs propofol or else he won't be able to sleep

So because of this YES MJ needed a intervention. This is the only way his life could have been saved. Get off the propofol and find more natural ways to get sleep. MJ was a grown man though, so he probably woud not have voluntered to do so. He would have had to be forced to do so which in my opinion would have been best for him and his life and kids. Get him in a clinic that treats addiction and insomia where they could time help him get sleep without having to use propofol.

Nicely said, I agree!
This way we all can see what turned out now...

 

[Autumn II]

There is no actual proof, but common sense, your paying this doctor 150,000 and you want this Dr ONLY. AEG offered MJ other options when it came to doctors that might have been much cheaper but MJ insisted on Dr Murray. To me this tells me Murray was willing to give MJ what he wanted.

We do not know any of this as factual. AEG says they offered Michael other options as to doctors. We do not know Michael's version of that.

The fact that MJ asked for it before and after the other drugs did not work, i believe he asked for it. This is where Dr Murray should have had the proper equipment and stayed by MJ's side.

We do not know what Michael did or did not "ask for." He is not here to tell us.

Nobody is defending Murray here, i just don't think it was his idea to go with propofol because he was trying other things the entire night. Obviously he was trying not to go that route.

We do not know what he was or was not "trying." We have only Murray's version, but not Michael's. I'm hoping there are household staff, or even the children, that might give some sort of accounting of what would have been Michael's version.

 

[daisydaisy]

No, the report (I think it was the autopsy if I'm not mistaken) said empty oxygen cylinder. It made no other claim. From working with oxygen tanks over the years though, I can not say that 2 or 3 days later when it was checked being found empty would surprise me at all.

On pg 31 of the coroner's report, in the anaesthesiology consultation section it does mention that the mask was not attached. As you said yourself, it is doubtful that anyone in an emergency situation would turn the tank off, well I think the same goes for removing the mask.

 

[ensleyave]

There is no actual proof, but common sense, your paying this doctor 150,000 and you want this Dr ONLY. AEG offered MJ other options when it came to doctors that might have been much cheaper but MJ insisted on Dr Murray. To me this tells me Murray was willing to give MJ what he wanted.

The fact that MJ asked for it before and after the other drugs did not work, i believe he asked for it. This is where Dr Murray should have had the proper equipment and stayed by MJ's side.

Nobody is defending Murray here, i just don't think it was his idea to go with propofol because he was trying other things the entire night. Obviously he was trying not to go that route.

Thank you for saying this is your belief and your common sense. You are entitled to that but for now I will agree to disagree with you.

 

[Beachlover]

he told them he gave lorazepam , they must have tested for it .

I said this at least a week ago. You were angry and didn't listen.

I am trying to tell you that there are a few drugs that were not tested in different places.

 

[Beachlover]

or Dr.Murray wanted to leave MJ , did not feel that 150.000 a month was enough to keep him beside MJ all night , so he decided to give him something medically is not less dangerous , nor more helpful.

I can't understand why people give Murray the benefit of the doubt , and they try to blame MJ and excuse murray .

MJ wanted a treatment to his insomnia , giving him ephedrine and energy drinks was the last thing he needed, prescribing temazepam was the last thing he needed , prescribing the highly addictive lorazepam to someone that suffered insomnia for decades was the last thing MJ needed, how come MJ would have been able to perform after being injected with lorazepam ? Murray was creating the stage for a disaster

Sound, I truly love you but where do you get the idea Murray gave Michael any energy drinks? He was not the dietician nor was he the chef.

 

[twinklEE]

I wish we wouldn't have to rely on the LAPD to get things done. Idk knowing their history, and their attitude and their history regarding Michael it's safe to say they want to get this over with already.

 

[twinklEE]

Sound, I truly love you but where do you get the idea Murray gave Michael any energy drinks? He was not the dietician nor was he the chef.

It was stated in the beginning. He told the chef what kind of drinks to give Michael.

 

[souldreamer7]

We've strayed pretty far from "voicemail?" I'm just sayin'.

For those who call for sticking to "facts," well sure. Good idea. There are some. Let me tell you what are NOT facts? Anything that Murray SAID happened is not a fact. It's just what he said, and he's the person accused of a serious crime. Michael is not here to give his version. Murray has already been caught in many inconsistencies, i.e. changes in the timeline. Well, oops?

What was Michael like behind closed doors? Actually, he was like the character in Thriller? His eyes turned cat-like and he was really, really, MEAN! Or, he was the same Michael so many of us love? Which is more likely behavior for this gentle soul? Demanding things of Dr. Murray, or something entirely different was the case? We should not assume Michael EVER "begged for propofol." We do not know if that happened, at all, and that is not a "fact," all-over-the-place statements by Nurse Lee, regardless. Let's see what she has to say under oath?

:agree:

I wish we wouldn't have to rely on the LAPD to get things done. Idk knowing their history, and their attitude and their history regarding Michael it's safe to say they want to get this over with already.

even my mother dosen't trust the lapd.