October 17 & 18 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

[bouee]

I have been reading about lorazepm for two days now and I don't know, it’s really hard to eliminate oral consumption 100% . ..

If they can't rule out oral consumption, maybe they can, based on what was left in the stomach content, draw conclusion as to an amount taken and / or time when it was taken, and be certain that, for example at 10 am or 11 am, the corresponding amount in the blood was not significant. It's not my favourite option, but does that sound impossible ? It would show, again, what a liar Murray is.

Also, on ABC tweet stream yesterday, they said that Dr Anderson searched for metabolites of lorazepam. So maybe they serched for lorazepam and other things that will help them rule out oral consumption.

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial

There's discrepancy between the results 4 both sides. Besides that, defense claims Anderson testified he couldn't test the drug's metabolite
Il y a 22 heures

ABC7 Murray Trial
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial

But prosecution reordered the test through Dan Anderson w/ results showing the amount of the drug and its metabolite. #conradmurraytrial
Il y a 22 heures

I hope testimony resumes tomorrow, Dan Anderson will clear this up

 

[smoothlugar]

That higher blood level of lorazepam than the one Murray admits giving could be also due to the accumulative effect from previous days said the anesthesiologist at the preliminary and also now I think the toxicologist Dr. Anderson.
Defense made urine tests and stomach content tests last summer, after apparently eliminating ingestion theory in May

yeah the A.R did say that. but rogers never mentioned it in his testimony. (would it be shaffers job to talk about that?) as its very important info and to not bring it up at all would be negligent

Yes, and both at the preliminary and now experts have provided arguments to “explain” the presence of propofol in the stomach content.
As far as I understood lorazepam and propofol don’t follow the same post-mortem redistribution pattern (hence the “ion-trapping” advanced by Dr. Anderson).
But again if blood trasspassed into the stomach, the same that happened with the lidocaine in the stomach, whose “concentration” increased greatly and far more than the blood level, it might happen the same with other substances once in the stomach. Besides the concentrations cannot be compared from two different environments (blood and stomach).
It applied for the lidocaine and for the propofol. Why not for the lorazepam??
I am sure Dr. Shafer, a pharmacologist, will know the answer.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: october 18th hearing

1.30pm

 

[Louise.]

Re: october 18th hearing

I'll be happy to copy and paste the tweets like I did yesterday to those who need them and don't have Twitter etc!

 

[bouee]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Did the defense "cook the books?" I.e. deliberately present WRONG scientific information? I think that's possible.

would that be legal ???? hno: please tell me it's not !!

 

[Autumn II]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

would that be legal ???? hno:" smilieid="54" class="inlineimg" /> please tell me it's not !!

I think it would be "illegal" only if it could be proven that it was not an "honest mistake?" And, that would be hard to prove.

 

[dam2040]

Re: october 18th hearing

what time does it kick off in the UK 5?

 

[bouee]

Re: october 18th hearing

I'll be happy to copy and paste the tweets like I did yesterday to those who need them and don't have Twitter etc!

thank you Louise

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial

There's discrepancy between the results 4 both sides. Besides that, defense claims Anderson testified he couldn't test the drug's metabolite
Il y a 22 heures

ABC7 Murray Trial
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial

But prosecution reordered the test through Dan Anderson w/ results showing the amount of the drug and its metabolite. #conradmurraytrial
Il y a 22 heures

Ok, then so the metabolite might help to rule things out.

 

[bouee]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Ok, then so the metabolite might help to rule things out.

thank you smoothlugar. Can you please explain why , I'm not really a specialist and I have a hard time folowing this sometimes, so if you can axplain, that would be great ! Thanks

 

[Louise.]

Re: october 18th hearing

what time does it kick off in the uk 5?

9:30pm

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: october 18th hearing

9.30pm uk time.thanks for posting the updates louise

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

I said that because of something explained by Dr. Anderson (in that case he was talking about the metabolites of demerol).

I understood the concept but finding it hard to explain. I am not a medical expert either, but from my understanding of his words metabolites relate to the time the system elliminates the substance taken (roughly explained, sorry).

---
I also wonder if blood concentrations can be compared to "concentrations" in the stomach content. That was one of the arguments why the tox findings were given in total amounts and not in concentrations.

If that has applied so far for the lidocaine and propofol, the logic deduction would be the same for the lorazepam.

 

[Louise.]

Re: october 18th hearing

"Prosecutor Walgren indicated yesterday he might recall Coroner's toxicologist Dan Anderson back to the stand before resting his case."

"Walgren's original plan was to rest after Propofol expert Dr. Shafer but w/ the new test of Lorazepam done by Anderson he might be recalled"

 

[bouee]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

thanks smoothugar, I think I get it : metabolites are created over time so would indicate some sort of time frame (among other things, surely)

 

[indranee]

Re: october 18th hearing

Thanks for the update Elusive.

 

[daisy]

That higher blood level of lorazepam than the one Murray admits giving could be also due to the accumulative effect from previous days said the anesthesiologist at the preliminary and also now I think the toxicologist Dr. Anderson.
Defense made urine tests and stomach content tests last summer, after apparently eliminating ingestion theory in May


Yes, and both at the preliminary and now experts have provided arguments to “explain” the presence of propofol in the stomach content.
As far as I understood lorazepam and propofol don’t follow the same post-mortem redistribution pattern (hence the “ion-trapping” advanced by Dr. Anderson).
But again if blood trasspassed into the stomach, the same that happened with the lidocaine in the stomach, whose “concentration” increased greatly and far more than the blood level, it might happen the same with other substances once in the stomach. Besides the concentrations cannot be compared from two different environments (blood and stomach).
It applied for the lidocaine and for the propofol. Why not for the lorazepam??
I am sure Dr. Shafer, a pharmacologist, will know the answer.

Good point. Because now, as the defence departed from drinking propofol theory, they must admit that blood did get to the stomach. So this is something both sides agre, this is something we know, a fact. That makes oral consumption so much less likely.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: october 18th hearing

1.30pm

ahh,,,,Ok thank you Elusive..I gotta work to...so I to will be looking for those updates...

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: october 18th hearing

I'll be happy to copy and paste the tweets like I did yesterday to those who need them and don't have Twitter etc!

thank you that will be great..:hug:

 

[Naturelle]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Oh ok thanks ivy

My gosh even with mj dead it still feels like ppl are like tearing him apart wish it would stop

yes, i had the feeling this would happen.

 

[ivy]

I have been reading about lorazepm for two days now and I don't know, it’s really hard to eliminate oral consumption 100% .

It will be up to the jurors to decide, but Chernoff promising them that science will prove was a huge mistake, the jurors wants him to deliver.Again it would have been much better if Walgren was on the offense on this subject and brought up the high lorazepam concentration on his opening statement .he could have said “we believe he gave not only more propofol than he admitted to but more lorazepam “. I believe that was too much to expect from the prosecutors after all the coroner told the jurors he was searching for lorazepam using his EYES !!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

prosecution has to prove everything they say so again bringing up theories but not being able to back them up 100% wouldn't help them.

 

[Ingelief]

why is nobody answering my post

 

[Popescu]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

I'll answer it for you, I thought someone did.

Can someone help me with this?? How is it restested by the defense AND pros? 2 years after??

Someone said here that the tests are done from the black liquid that was found in the stomach. They saved it.

Also at prelim i hear they say the bloodlevel was consited with 9 til 12 mg lorezapam. That is much higher that Cm told the police what he gave michael?? Why is the pros said then it was lower in the stomach later in this trial? 1/40??

I'm not sure I understand your question. Yes, the lorazepam levels were consistent with that amount and we are talking about blood levels. In the stomach, the quantity was consistent with less that 1/40 of a pill. The defense has tried to argue that the levels in the blood were that high because Michael had ingested lorazepam pills, instead of Murray giving it to him via IV. It's the same sh*t they tried to say about propofol too.

Also Now there 3 test done? One back then by coroner? And now one by the defense and one by pros?? Are the one from the coronor and pros now the same results?? OR are there 3 different test results??

If it is 9 til 12 mg, then that helps the defense case???? Like its said early in a post, it was said that that is high very high level.

The coroner never tested a specific marker the first time. The defence did and came up with a number, then the prosecution made the coroner redo the defense test and now they have a smaller number than they had in the first place, based on a more basic test they performed the first time. At least this is what I understood from what was explained here.

All this does NOT help the defense. It reveals that Murray lied also about the amount of Lorazepam that he administered, not just the Propofol. And it might make them look bad in front of the jury, since they already presented their theory, which is about to be debunked by a prosecution witness, mr. Anderson.

Hope that covers it!

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

.

How is it restested by the defense AND pros? 2 years after??

The coroner initially only tested the gastric content for total amounts (not concentrations) of lidocaine and propofol.

Also at prelim i hear they say the bloodlevel was consited with 9 til 12 mg lorezapam. That is much higher that Cm told the police what he gave michael??

From 7 to 12mg was the anesthesiologist estimation at the prelim. But they were talking about total amounts given to reach the high concentration levels of lorazepam found in heart blood and femoral blood.

Why is the pros said then it was lower in the stomach later in this trial? 1/40??

They didn't talk about lorazepam in the stomach before now, since there were no tests done till recently.

Also Now there 3 test done? One back then by coroner? And now one by the defense and one by pros?? Are the one from the coronor and pros now the same results?? OR are there 3 different test results??

During the summer, the defense did some tests of urine and of the gastric content.
And pros also did another test last week...

If it is 9 til 12 mg, then that helps the defense case???? Like its said early in a post, it was said that that is high very high level.

They are different amounts. 7 to 12mg (not 9 to 12, that i wrongly wrote before) was estimated in the preliminary as the quantity of lorazepam to be administered to produce the blood level concentration, which was high.

Now at the trial the toxicologist, Dr. Anderson estimated it would be 11mg the total amount of lorazepam administered by Murray to produce the high femoral blood levels detected.He could not determine whether orally or intravenously.

Now, the lorazepam in the gastric content: there can be several medical explanations for its presence there... (as it happened with lidocaine or propofol for example).
Pros did this test to debunk the lorazepam orally...

 

[twinklEE]

I read on another board that the defense is gonna argue that the stomach content is degraded and that the their test results shouldn't be allowed to be brought in, anyone else heard this?

 

[ivy]

as far as I can tell (from the reports) judge already allowed the testing result to be brought in. Defense surely argue that they are degraded but didn't they do the testing only a few months ago as well?

 

[sophie]

to rule out oral consumption, do they need to show that concentration is lower in the stmach content than in the blood ? If so, that would be a huge difference in the amount of lorazepam between the defense's test and the prosecution test ?

i dont think they can completely outrule it, even if concentration is lower, defense can probably still argue that tablets were taken earlier.
unless maybe there are other ingredients in the tablets which need some time to dissolve so that in relation to the lorazepam amount found in stomach these other ingredients should also have been present?

but it would make other explanations more likely, e.g. substances were found in stomach because of a transmural hemorrhage.
when anderson takes the stand again he should point this out to the jury. - i don't know why he didn't bring transmural hemorrhage up during his testimony?

and he could explain to the jury how ion trapping works: ion trapping has nothing got to do with postmortem distribution. it means that in an acid environment (like the stomach) basic drugs can accumulate, they are "trapped". and the concentration can get higher than e.g. in the blood from what i understand.
i don't think jurors understood this when he was discussing it with flanagan during cross.

 

[twinklEE]

as far as I can tell (from the reports) judge already allowed the testing result to be brought in. Defense surely argue that they are degraded but didn't they do the testing only a few months ago as well?

yeah they did, they did their tests in august, so if they argue that it's degraded it's gonna bite them back as well.

 

[ivy]

i dont think they can completely outrule it, even if concentration is lower, defense can probably still argue that tablets were taken earlier.

but if taken earlier doesn't it make it adverse effects less likely? For example add Murray's timeline to the mix. The only options are around the time Michael came and took a shower - and was alone or the time Murray went to the restroom. So for example if he took 8 pills around 10 AM, but 11 AM they would be almost half effective - doesn't that make any adverse effect less likely?

and also I can't understand that defense theory. even though we assume Michael took 8 pills why wouldn't the propofol Murray gave wouldn't affect him but the propofol Michael gave would affect him? And if they assume Michael took the pills after Murray gave propofol , then it would be too short of a time for them to cause any adverse effects.

ughh my head hurts

 

[Louise.]

"We are in the courtroom for the hearing in the #ConradMurraytrial. Prosecutors arrived extra early today to avoid any penalty."

"Dr. #ConradMurray is not present, since he was not ordered to appear. He's represented by his attorneys Chernoff, Flanagan and Gourjian."

"Prosecutors David Walgren and Deborah Brazil also in the courtroom."http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=#ConradMurraytrial