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Defense Tactics: Look what TMZ is saying..is this going to be the defense in the trial?

Anything to keep MJ fans visiting their website until January 25th.

Anything for money.
 
Ingelief said:
ok maybe in the us *seems there is everything possible with propofol* but not here..
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To be honest, in the UK, I've never heard of children as young as 6 being put under general anesthetic for a dental procedure either. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.

I searched 'general anesthesia children dental' in google and this was one of the things that came up..

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070716171802AAbY8GA



General anesthesia in children for dental work?

My son is going on 6 years old. After a visit to the pediatric dentist today we discovered that he has several cavities and an abcessed tooth. The dentist also wants to put caps on the rest of his molars to protect them. He said we could do the laughing gas & a local and split the procedures in to 2 visits but he would prefer we use a general anesthetic and do everything at once. I am so scared to have my little boy put under, I am a very emotional person and this is very hard for me to consider. Does anyone have any input on this subject?

Answer -

It's very common i assure you. We do this alot, especially with 'little guys' whom need alot of Dental treatment.

The reason being, with children this age and younger, most are either scared of the Dentist or they cant sit still long enough for the Dentist to do the procedures. Nitrous (laughing gas) is fine, but the children still move around. Some get bored and shift around, some just get tired of sitting there for long periods of time and of course some just get impatient. It's a long process, and kids in general cant sit still long enough like an adult can.
Your Dentist prefers the General, for many reasons. 1) The child will be put under and he can work without interruptions. 2) It cuts down on visits (again, most children dont enjoy coming to see us multi times, which your child will have to). And 3) He's thinking of your child, and his comfort. Doing it all at once, is less stress on a child. And less trauma, for the child. He wont feel any discomfort, from sitting in a chair with his mouth open for however long he has too, which can be very time consuming with multi procedures like his (your child).

*Trust your Dentist, he wouldnt do you wrong! He's only looking out for your child, the best way he knows how.
Source(s):
Dental Assistant, 15 yrs and still going...

Other Answers -

1) I use general anesthesia on lots of kids of this age group for extensive dental work. It will very likely allow the dentist to do a much better job in a shorter time since absolute "cooperation" is guaranteed. The anesthetic does not need to be very deep for straight dental work. The dentists usually prefer that we put the breathing tube in through the nose, to keep it out of their way and to allow them to check the bite following restoration. We give the kids liquid Versed beforehand, put them out with gas, start an IV, and put in the breathing tube. It seems to be a very good technique.
Source(s):
Anesthesiologist MD

2) My dentist said she is perfectly secure having her son (I think he's around 4-5) going under Twilight Sleep. You're not fully under, just kind of asleep. You become more relaxed where you may think you're sleeping (Twilight Sleep) but actually don't remember being awake. I had this done and it's great.

The first stage is the laughing gas stage, next is Twilight Sleep, and the deeper stage is general anesthesia.
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nb. In the TMZ article it doesn't say propofol for Blanket, if you read carefully they say anesthesia for Blanket, but propofol for MJ.. so Blanket may not have had propofol, it could have been something else.
 
StacyJ said:
Speaking of signing off on anesthesia and it's risks, aren't there forms that are supposed to be signed by the patient when undergoing anesthesia?
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Yup. And you pretty much need to do it for every single time separately. And if you give anything else that was not mentioned in that form without the patient's consent...you're in big trouble. So if Murray don't have that, then you could pretty much say Murray gave ALL of the drugs without MJ's permission. So much for "MJ insisting"....prove it.
 
If some fans think that the media is gonna be pro Michael Jackson then they will be disapointed. You just know that the media will potray Murray as the good innocent doctor who was in way over his head and potray Michael has the evil drug addict.
 
ScrEAm.Jack5on said:
To be honest, in the UK, I've never heard of children as young as 6 being put under general anesthetic for a dental procedure either. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.
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From reading the posts it seems in general (not just children, adults as well) that this is different in Europe. They seem to be a lot "quicker" with giving anesthesia at the dentist in the US than they are over here. I still think it's too dangerous though to do this, unless someone is so scared that it's impossible to do anything without anesthesia. I finally found a dentist who uses enough lidocaine and it works, no pain. No nothing. Most don't pay enough attention and just want to get it done quickly, so giving more lidocaine if the first injection wasn't enough is not something they usually do. That's why a lot of people are scared to death of dentists, because even with lidocaine, most of the time, it's torture.

And also, don't forget that dentists make more money if they give anesthesia. Maybe that's why it's done a lot in the US. The dentists that do it over here, I'm sure you have to pay them a pretty high amount of money as well and they also won't do the rest for just what the health insurance pays, you have to pay for everything yourself, every filling, etc. So it's about money as well.

P.S.: As for the jurors - they won't be European though.
 
analogue said:
If some fans think that the media is gonna be pro Michael Jackson then they will be disapointed. You just know that the media will potray Murray as the good innocent doctor who was in way over his head and potray Michael has the evil drug addict.
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I wish they would be fair and show some common decency. Michael is dead and they keep doing the same thing over and over again. A doctor that doesn't even know how to do CPR or call 911 is not innocent and good. People who don't even like Michael should question what kind of doctor this is when he can't even do that.
 
ScrEAm.Jack5on said:
To be honest, in the UK, I've never heard of children as young as 6 being put under general anesthetic for a dental procedure either. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.

I searched 'general anesthesia children dental' in google and this was one of the things that came up..

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070716171802AAbY8GA



nb. In the TMZ article it doesn't say propofol for Blanket, if you read carefully they say anesthesia for Blanket, but propofol for MJ.. so Blanket may not have had propofol, it could have been something else.
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They don't mention general anesthesia, but sedation. Just wanted to point that out because there is a difference. We use Propofol to sedate kids who need an MRI or CT because you would not be able to get those done if they were awake, because they usually won't stay still that long (some manage, but it's a small minority).

Also, before anyone knows what kind of dental work Michael (or Blanket...if it's even true) needed...it won't be fair to judge. And also, what works for one patient may not work for someone else. Some are not scared....some can tolerate pain better than others....and it's not really anyone's business to judge someone, ESPECIALLY when they don't know the details. I mean, some women insist on giving birth without any drugs because they "want to have the full experience" and then laugh at women who need pain medication. That is not right either. Some women feel they don't need drugs because they feel they can cope with the pain...and some need pretty much all you can give them, and still find it painful. People are all different and you have to respect that. (I have always said that the only way I'll have kids is if I can have a c-section. Period. :mello:)

In MJ's autopsy report it was menioned that there had been at least one root canal and if I remember correctly he had two implants as well...We don't know when he got those, but if it was in Las Vegas....as I said earlier....I'd want to be knocked out for a root canal also! I've only heard horror stories and I don't need to try and see for myself if they are true if I'll ever ned one. No thanks! Anyways...the point is....they are making a big deal of it all because it's Michael Jackson. Dental work in sedation was not invented by MJ....
 
ScrEAm.Jack5on said:
In the TMZ article it doesn't say propofol for Blanket, if you read carefully they say anesthesia for Blanket, but propofol for MJ.. so Blanket may not have had propofol, it could have been something else.
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I think you just hit the nail on the head. TMZ carefully words their articles to make people think along a certain line so they cannot be held culpable. The article never says Blanket got propofol, but that is what people will assume, especially after that headline.

Carefully placed words, and carefully worded sentences to make people think MJ was careless with the life of his child. It is propaganda at its worst. It is so sickening. They make me sick.

I am so glad I stopped going to their redunkulous website.
 
Like every other parent in the US and the rest of the world, Michael got to make medical decisions concerning his children. I'm sure that there are things that some people do or do not do that Michael felt wasn't right; yet, he seemed to understand that such was there business.

People in the media and some others need to just stop, get out of this man's business, and grow up.
 
summer said:
In MJ's autopsy report it was menioned that there had been at least one root canal and if I remember correctly he had two implants as well...We don't know when he got those, but if it was in Las Vegas....as I said earlier....I'd want to be knocked out for a root canal also!
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Not here, most dentists wouldn't give you anesthesia for a root canal (like I said, only those that you have to pay for yourself might possibly do that) - and frankly, if it's done right with lidocaine, you won't feel anything. It's not worse than getting a new filling with lidocaine. You also don't get anesthesia for implants (again, with the above mentioned limitation), and health insurance here doesn't cover implants, so you have to go see one of those dentists that turn everything into gold for themselves and in theory wouldn't mind making even more money by giving you anesthesia. But even many of those don't want to take the risk - not even for money. I know people with implants (wish I had their money, haha), they didn't get anesthesia.

So this indeed seems to be different in the US, that's why you have all those Europeans in here saying "Anesthesia at the dentist? WT:censored: ?"
 
What does this all remind you guys of? The run up to the trial in 2005. How many sleazy headlines did we encounter about MJ, questioning his parenting skills his lifestyle-it was nasty and vile. But they never stuck, lets try not to get upset about it. The defence is on a smear campaign at the moment, leaking documents like this, just like the prosecution was when documents from the grand jury hearing were 'leaked'. They're trying to get people on side and it won't work.
 
ScrEAm.Jack5on said:
...

nb. In the TMZ article it doesn't say propofol for Blanket, if you read carefully they say anesthesia for Blanket, but propofol for MJ.. so Blanket may not have had propofol, it could have been something else.
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Sure, character assassination by omitting something. We are expected to hear 'anesthesia' and make an automatic jump to Propofol.
They only said anesthesia, so you can't sure for factually wrong statements. They are experts in slandering someone the safe and secure way. It's abuse, it's meant to hurt, but the perpetrator is continually grinning, washing his hands in innocence.

There's a reason MJ was continually called 'gay'. Nobody in that biz cares if you're gay- but it works by playing on general perceived homophobia in the general public. Especially when the allegations hit- by playing on that 'gay, therefore likes male children' nonsense. Totally ignoring the fact that pedophilia is found plentiful among heterosexuals.

I just watched "The Trials of Michael Jackson', excellent documentary and I was shaking by the end at how much abuse Michael went through, how much he was bullied- walking into that courthouse day after day.

Playing on associations, stereotypes and your subconscious mind, like a trigger.
Disgusting.
 
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Pace said:
Especially when the allegations hit- by playing on that 'gay, therefore likes male children' nonsense. Totally ignoring the fact that pedophilia is found plentyful among heterosexuals.
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I know this is a bit off topic, but I have to comment on this. This is one of the biggest preconceptions against homosexuals, the ugliest one out there. If you are a homosexual, then there has to be something else wrong with you too ... And yes, I think that was the main reason why they started the gay rumor in the first place.
 
I remember visiting a dentist 2 years ago in Germany and the doc had a long discussion with another patient (well her kid was the patient), anyways he later apologized to me for letting me wai for more than an hour, but he said the patient he was going to have the next day was a little kid, a 5 year old boy, who needed some kind procedure done, he said he had to sedate the kid and put him under, something he usually does not do but has to in that particular case. In Germany they don't give you Propofol or other anesthesia for standard procedures such as filling/root canal/implants etc, you just get a shot which numbs your mouth, the doc was extremely unsure when I think back.. lol I don't even know if he went ahead and did it or not, but it was obviously a big thing for him which required a long discussion, but anyways I've been sedated in the US plenty of times for dental work myself. So it is different from region to region.

Summer I agree completely with your previous post
 
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Milka said:
Not here, most dentists wouldn't give you anesthesia for a root canal (like I said, only those that you have to pay for yourself might possibly do that) - and frankly, if it's done right with lidocaine, you won't feel anything. It's not worse than getting a new filling with lidocaine. You also don't get anesthesia for implants (again, with the above mentioned limitation), and health insurance here doesn't cover implants, so you have to go see one of those dentists that turn everything into gold for themselves and in theory wouldn't mind making even more money by giving you anesthesia. But even many of those don't want to take the risk - not even for money. I know people with implants (wish I had their money, haha), they didn't get anesthesia.

So this indeed seems to be different in the US, that's why you have all those Europeans in here saying "Anesthesia at the dentist? WT:censored: ?"
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You know, being European I also say, WTF, at how women in Europe are often treated at their Gynecologist ("wann war denn die letze Regel???" screamed across the waiting area), or just even taking a simple xRay, or having to wait 3 months for an MRI.

I also say WTF to clinics in modern day Europe that feature rooms shared by 4 women in a modern maternity ward and shared toilet and shower on one floor for all 'inmates.'

So the "WTF" pretty much goes both ways between anything across the pond. :D

People just need to be aware of the differences and that there are differences. Things are being done differently across the world, that's all. And I think it's sometimes good to explain these differences in non-hysterical way.

Most pediatricians in the US would laugh themselves silly at their European colleagues for including homeopathy in their regular practice. Most European pediatricians shake their heads as to why male newborns in the US are losing half their genitals for no apparent reason.

MJ is not some loveable freak that forced someone with a loaded gun to do something against their ethics and nature. MJ ran into a criminal- he is the victim at the end of the day. Not the other way around.

A criminal mind will bring up enough criminal energy to work with whatever 'system' it encounters- and find a way to get around culture specific things to be criminal. Criminal energy doesn't limit itself to any sort of passport of a particular color.

TMZ (and apparently the defence as well) is running with the "the girl wouldn't have been raped if she didn't wear the short skirt" kind of attitude- and many people will fall for it.

People need to be explained the differences, because it is definitely not the norm here to die because somebody with a 'Dr.' attached to their name performs general anesthesia in a home setting and stockpiles 15 liters of an anesthetic.
 
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StacyJ said:
Speaking of signing off on anesthesia and it's risks, aren't there forms that are supposed to be signed by the patient when undergoing anesthesia?
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yes

Milka said:
But this is what I heard from all the dentists - anesthesia is too much of a risk for relativly small things that can be done with lidocaine (even if it's a wisdom tooth that has to be surgically removed or similar things). That the anesthesia as such is a risk that one shouldn't take for anything that a dentist does. Now I'm sure I'd get a bit of a different story if I went to one of those that you have to pay for yourself. But in general - they will tell you "no". So I don't really get what the hell is wrong with all those doctors. IF the story is true.
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It really depends on the procedure. Both my brother and I had our wisdom teeth removed. Mine were already out and it was considered "extraction" and they were simply pulled when I only had local anesthetic/numbing agent (whatever it is) in my mouth. In my brother's case they had to cut into his gum/jaw to get to his wisdom teeth and they said it was not possible for them to do it without general anesthesia. I was in the room when they put pulse and heart rate monitors on him and I think it was anesthesia done with gas + IV. I was again in the "waking up room" with him, when they told me it would take him 20 minutes to completely wake up. He was still tied to the monitors and a nurse was constantly checking up on him.

Milka said:
From reading the posts it seems in general (not just children, adults as well) that this is different in Europe. They seem to be a lot "quicker" with giving anesthesia at the dentist in the US than they are over here.
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I agree. I lived in Europe and then later moved to US. I haven't seen or heard about anesthesia in a dentist office in Europe.

summer said:
In MJ's autopsy report it was menioned that there had been at least one root canal and if I remember correctly he had two implants as well...
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US Experience

I have experienced root canal (by a normal dentist and a specialist). General anesthesia wasn't offered. It was done by local.

My father had an implant and yes for that general anesthesia was in the alternatives possible (as implants also require to cut into the gum/jaw).

Side note : Propofol is also commonly used in US for colonoscopy.
 
ScrEAm.Jack5on said:
I searched 'general anesthesia children dental' in google and this was one of the things that came up..

*Trust your Dentist, he wouldnt do you wrong! He's only looking out for your child, the best way he knows how.
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That line stood out for me. That is why people don't often question medical professionals, we are taught to trust our doctors/dentists/anyone with a license. They are supposed to be professionals in their field, and look out for your best interest. They are NOT supposed to give into whatever you ask for and cater for all your wishes -they are supposed to do what's good for your health! And we are supposed to put our trust in them. Since when has it become the patients' responsibility to educate themselves on all factors conserning their treatment?? Shouldn't we be able to trust that the professional knows what to do and refuses to do anything that puts us in danger?

Trust your dentist, he wouldn't do you wrong..
Trust your doctor, he wouldn't do you wrong...

That's the general rule. I guess Murray was the exception to that rule.


As for the TMZ article.. It's not worthy of a response.
 
Lets not turn this into comparison of European vs US medical practices. In the end of the day its a cleverly worded BS story to make people think that MJ held a gun to someone's head to make him give Blanket propofol. If you read the documents as Ivyy said there is not a single mention of Blanket, plus these documents have been released for four months, yet today they somehow end up on TMZs desk-hmmm wonder who did that then. People see the headline and assume-the story itself says Blanket was given anesthesia-that could mean anything.
 
Milka said:
I know this is a bit off topic, but I have to comment on this. This is one of the biggest preconceptions against homosexuals, the ugliest one out there. If you are a homosexual, then there has to be something else wrong with you too ... And yes, I think that was the main reason why they started the gay rumor in the first place.
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ill never forgot fox news making a comment when mj went to washington for the aids awareness thing that the african presidents wives did. this was in the middle of the GJ or around that time. the presenter on fox said hes gone to a aids event cause gays gets aids and gays are paedos. :mello::smilerolleyes: only on fox news
 
elusive moonwalker said:
ill never forgot fox news making a comment when mj went to washington for the aids awareness thing that the african presidents wives did. this was in the middle of the GJ or around that time. the presenter on fox said hes gone to a aids event cause gays gets aids and gays are paedos. :mello::smilerolleyes: only on fox news
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'I got edumacated by Billo ORiley.' Yeah. :doh:
 
Pace said:
You know, being Europeans I also say, WTF, how women in Europe are often treated at their Gynecologist ("wann war denn die letze Regel???" screamed across the waiting area), or just even taking a simple xRay.
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Oh, and at the hospital, with at least 4 or 5 other patients in the same room and the doctors talk to each one in front of everybody else, asking all kinds of embarrassing questions and all the other patients hear every single word.

Pace said:
I also say WTF to clinics in modern day Europe that feature rooms shared by 4 women in a modern maternity ward and shared toilet and shower on one floor for all 'inmates.'
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Yep, when I was at the hospital, not the maternity ward though, I took a shower only once in 3 days, yes, I admit that - I was so disgusted and couldn't wait to get back home. I didn't have anything contagious, but a lot of other patients might have had everything from flu to hepatitis and all kinds of tropical diseases, since this ward was also for infectious diseases/tropical diseases. I thought they are trying to kill me or something.

Pace said:
People just need to be aware of the differences and that there are differences.
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Yep, that's what I mean - the Europeans in here shouldn't be too shocked about those things - although I agree with not giving anesthesia at the dentist. Unless there is some huge thing that needs to be done. I think it's too risky.

Sophielo said:
Lets not turn this into comparison of European vs US medical practices.
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I think it's important, I think that Europeans reading this story will be a lot more shocked than Americans and will feel it's totally out of the ordinary to get anesthesia at the dentist. They have to know that it's not really out of the ordinary in the US, or they might jump to the wrong conclusions about this story.

elusive moonwalker said:
ill never forgot fox news making a comment when mj went to washington for the aids awareness thing that the african presidents wives did. this was in the middle of the GJ or around that time. the presenter on fox said hes gone to a aids event cause gays gets aids and gays are paedos. :mello::smilerolleyes: only on fox news
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That's unbelievable. Are we still living in the Middle Ages?
 
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elusive moonwalker said:
ill never forgot fox news making a comment when mj went to washington for the aids awareness thing that the african presidents wives did. this was in the middle of the GJ or around that time. the presenter on fox said hes gone to a aids event cause gays gets aids and gays are paedos. :mello::smilerolleyes: only on fox news
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What? I hope this person was fired. I don't think you can say things like that especially on a show. That is sick.
 
marebear said:
What? I hope this person was fired. I don't think you can say things like that especially on a show. That is sick.
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No, quite the contrary, Marebear. Fox HIRES people like that. What was that about Haiti being 'punished by God' and so forth?

^^^There are entire networks that live of the total bottomfeeder mentality.

Usually, if you were afraid that you might be a redneck, idiot, homophobe or otherwise challenged- you just need to be aware of being such and you are highly encouraged to add yourself to the human resource pool over at Fox.

In other terms- if you are afraid to say certain things out loud because they sound so backwards and reactionary- you're the right person for the job.

The only require in addition to that is the ability to act like an internet troll that incites hatred- when you're caught spewing hatred, you need to be able to wash your hands clean, saying "what?? I'm just a shock jock, you know I don't mean it."

Certain networks are like internet trolls- they say stuff to get a rise out of people, it brings controversy and ratings because that type of 'journalism' is like Nancy Grace or Diane Dimond- you know it's wrong. It's like a horror movie when you want to scream at the lead character "NOOOOOO! Don't go into the basement to find out what that sound is."
 
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As Theoden says before the siege at Helm's Deep "and so it begins..."

No doubt it will get worse as the arraignment and the trial approach. There will be those (fans included) who get hysterical and condemnatory. And then there will be us - using our logic, context, intelligence to UNspin the drivel.
 
Pace said:
No, quite the contrary, Marebear. Fox HIRES people like that. What was that about Haiti being 'punished by God' and so forth?

^^^There are entire networks that live of the total bottomfeeder mentality.

Usually, if you were afraid that you might be a redneck, idiot, homophob or otherwise challenged- you just need to be aware of being such and you are highly encouraged to add yourself to the human resource pool over at Fox.

In other terms- if you are afraid to say certain things out loud because they sound so backwards and reactionary- you're the right person for the job.
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That's terrible. I don't understand how people can be like that. It feels like 2005 all over again. That feeling like we are the only ones on Michael's side you know?
 
marebear said:
That's terrible. I don't understand how people can be like that. It feels like 2005 all over again. That feeling like we are the only ones on Michael's side you know?
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It felt like that already only 2 or 3 days after Michael's passing when the main troll on there slammed 'pathetic grieving MJ fans'.

Don't worry, these people never went away. They are just pi**ed that such a wonderful target is gone- they way they were upset that they couldn't report on MJ being on suicide watch being in jail.

Same mentality.
 
Pace said:
It felt like that already only 2 or 3 days after Michael's passing when the main troll on there slammed 'pathetic grieving MJ fans'.

Don't worry, these people never went away. They are just pi**ed that such a wonderful target is gone- they way they were upset that they couldn't report on MJ being on suicide watch being in jail.

Same mentality.
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I also think these people want Murray to get off as well.
 
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