Murray Trial - 12 October - Day 11 - Discussion

So, I'm thinking Murray is using the 20 minutes to give Chernoff an old school b*tchout using island patois for allowing him to give that police interview....without knowing whether Murray was truly busted or not. IMO, they only did that interview becuz they thought the police had found the bags. Their intention was to sit down and give answers to questions they figured the cops already had. And the idea that the revelation came near the END of the interview was classic. Had they known beforehand that cops hadn't found the bags you can bet your life that Murray's interview would have gone down differently. His "story" would have been very different or rather, he wouldn't have had a story to tell at all. He would have stuck with the old "I didn't give him anything that should have killed him" from day one.

He dug his own grave with false honesty.
 
Has the judge ruled on the brazilian student's research of drinking propofol be brought in yet?
 
Muarry had no records and was not able to tell UCLA what he gave Michael. Emergency was only 4 mins. away and Muarry wasted 20 something minutes. This is a very clear and precise witness and his evidence is damaging to Muarry.

Muarry scratched by his nose and looked at it. I wonder if he has on make up.

Strange, I've seen Murray scratch his nose and then look at his hand/fingers in the past, too. Very weird.
 
bouee;3510020 said:
Recap ; sorry, i can't be as fast as Elusive …

Alan Steinberg Cardiologist

as a cardiologist is not an expert in anesthesia, sleep meecine, addiction drugs
board certified = took a course and 2 days test that covers the basics of cardiology. 90% of the people who take it pass it

Has reviewed CM's resume. Cm was not board certified on june 25th 2009.

he's an expert reviewer for the California Medical Board : reviews other doctors' actions to ensure the standard of care has been respected; Extreme deviation from staard of care = gross negligence;

has conduted a review for the cali medical board in this case.

Has conduted 8 different reviews : in 4 found no deviation, in 4 other found simple deviation of care. First time he's seen an extreme deviation from standard of care.

Cardiologists use sedation for many procedure, so he's used to sedation. As a cadiologist he's an expert in mild or moderate sedation; Conscious sedation : you're still able to talk. Cardiologists are trained in moderate sedation or conscious sedation.
Deep sedation = only responsive to pain or repeated stimula. As a cariologist, not trained in deep sedation.
When Deep sedation is needed, calls anesthesiologist, because as a cardiologist he's not trained to do that.
Mild or moderate sedation : uses benzos. Deep sedation : uses propofol with an anesthesiologist.

Has reviewed this case : has focused his review based on CM interview with police : wanted to judge CM on his own words.

Found 6 seperate extreme deviation from standard of care

1 propofol was not medically indicated. Never heard of propofol used for insomnia. Using propofol for insomnia is an extreme deviation
No written informed consent : the patient must be informe of the risks and benefits

2 propofol given in a home setting, without proper equimpent and proper staff :
equipment needed : pulse oximeter with an alarm, Murray's didn't have an alarm. Automated blood pressure cuff, to check blood pressure at least every 5 mn. Murray had a manual cuff and did not use it. EKG machine. Oxygen + nasual cannula or mask, Suction in case you regurgitate into your lungs, an Ambu bag. Murray had an ambu bag but did not use it (did mouth to mouth). Have a way to call for help . Backboard : in case you need to give CPR. A back up battery in case of a black out for the equipment. Device that keeps the airway open, equipment to rescue the airway (endotracheal tube). The endotracheal tube requires trained staff.
A patient can become oversedated, where a patient goes from moderate to deep sedation.
You need a defibrilator.
Need special drugs : fluamzenil, narcan, lidocaine, betablockers, atropine, dopamine, epinephrine, prednisone, dextrose (missed one, sorry)
deep sedation : you need a trained Bls & ACLS assistant
bls = basic life support. ACLS : adanced cardiac life support.

3 inadequate preparation for an emergency : have the drugs ready, equipment ready, have a person ready to help you

4 improper care during the arrest : didn't follow proper protocol; arrest = cardiac arrest = heart stops beating. No blood pressure, the patient collapses. Call 911, use a defibrilator, and do CPR on a hard surface.
In MJ's case , it was a repiratory arrest : the oxygen goes down, the heart beats harder : this is where CM found MJ, based on CM's words. If you do nothing, the heart weakens because of lack of oxygen, and stops contracting but there is still an electrical activity. Thats PEA. After PEA, there's asystoly.
Should have called 911 immediately, tried to awake MJ (heart wound ??), give flumazenil, should have used the ambu bag. Should NOT have done CPR, because there was a pulse.

Cpr was poor quality, because MJ was on a bed. Says it would have been very easy to put MJ on the floor.

5 failing to call for help. Should have called 911 immediately. Instead called MAW, caused a further delay.
For every minute delay in calling EMS, there are less and less chances the patient will survive, and there is a risk of permanent brain damage.
Thought it was bizarre and strange to call an assistant instead of calling 911.

6 failure to maintain proper medical records. Important because of insurane companies, litigation, better health care. Dr Murray did not document anything at all. Cm was confused (or dihonest) and was not able to explain MJ's history or what he gave him to the ER doctoe or EMTs.

These extreme deviations lead to MJ's death. Without these deviation, Mj would still be alive.

Even with only 25mg propofol pthe risk of respiratory depression is still here.

Even if MJ took pills or self administered, the extreme deviations still stand and still lead to MJ's death. If MJ self administered, means that Murray was away, and that should not have happened. Compares leaving a patient under propofol to leaving a baby sleeping on he kitchen counter.
Medication should not have been within MJ's reach

End of direct exam. Recess.

Excellent witness, he did a fantastic job. I'm in love.


Great job!!! Thank you bouee :) MJ woul still be alive. cm, you are not a dr.
 
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Apparently, there was an argument in the courtroom about the drinking doctor. The DA wanted to bring him in, but the defense said that they did their own research on pigs and they decided to not use it. The judge then ask, 'didn't you say he drank this stuff in the opening?', and the defense claimed not to.

It would seemed that the defense has completely jumped shit on the drinking theory.

The defence keep changing their statements... I don't think they know their own defence.

Oh hell Flann is cross-exam and asking if he thinks Murray's statements was complete...(how the hell would he know - my comment).

Informed consent should be written for litigation purposes, but can do it orally, if it wasn't written down it's not done!
 
It just hit me...maybe THIS is why Chernoff is sticking with Murray, possibly for little or no money.

Slimely incompetent lawyer served his slimey incompetent client up on a silver platter to the police with a self serving agenda. Perhaps he feels he owes Murray? No other lawyer would say or do the strange things Chernoff has done in this case. And when you look at his record he's "allegedly" a good lawyer.

The police may have bungled some things up in this case but they did not bungle up with Murray did to Michael...in Murray's own words...whether truth or fiction (mostly fictions, we know), he's locked into them, now.
 
what the hell does Flannigan think this is,,,,two farmers shaking hands on the trade of cattle. Of course their MUST be a written and signed consent, again ,,,,it goes back to the standard of care,,,Murray failed.
 
Flanagan is trying so hard to put words into Steinberg's mouth, but it's not working AT ALL! Haha, fantastic.
 
OMFG...I can't believe he just asked if a patient consent form in writing is really necessary?? WTF?! This is standard in a doctor giving care, especially when dealing with medication and anyting involving anesthesia. Flanagan is an idiot.

If Murray had the written informed consent he should have provided it. He doesn't have it. If he does, he's hiding it to protect his own arse.
 
Flanagan is now going the last resort route by trying to throw MJ under the bus, bringing up demerol and Klein, all kinds of BS. All sustained by Pastor.
 
asking if he was aware MJ was habitual user of demerol ..objection...sustained..and asking if read Kliens medical records on MJ said no...Defence is going on about Michaels drug habit and if he knows MJ's propensity towards drug, said no...suggesting MJ would not respond in same way as average person would as implying MJ was an addict.

Dr S is saying are you saying because you're saying that if some one is an addict they would still take it, he said he wouldn't be giving it to the person in the first place.

Doesn't know single cardiologist who uses Propofol, have heard Dentist have and Flan is going through list of other people who might use
 
WHY is Flannigan throwing around the addict word again?? HE KNOWS that there was NO demeral found in Michael's system. Flannigan is an ass..
 
The Flat dude is jumping to what pulmonologists do or don't do *rolling eyes*
 
He has never used propofol for concious sedation and doesn't think its therapeutic for CS...respitory arrest caused death of MJ and not cardio arrest..because he had pulse and wasn't breathing
 
what is this fuckery about? Flanagan sit your senile ass down in an old people's home somewhere. you lunatic
 
Oh for crying out load its on record there was a delay with Murray calling the paramedics...

Oh look he's back on lorazepan again.
 
This guy has Murray's statement ingrained in his brain like most of us. He knows it back and forth. When Flanagan tries to deviate from what Murray said in the interview, the Dr. jumps on it and reminds Flanagan of exactly what MURRAY said.
 
He has never used propofol for concious sedation and doesn't think its therapeutic for CS...respitory arrest caused death of MJ and not cardio arrest..because he had pulse and wasn't breathing

Flanagan asked again if monitoring equipment would be needed for conscious sedation, he replied he was unawared.
 
This guy has Murray's statement ingrained in his brain like most of us. He knows it back and forth. When Flanagan tries to deviate from what Murray said in the interview, the Dr. jumps on it and reminds Flanagan of exactly what MURRAY said.
which is good imo. senile flanagan tries every trick in the world to defend his lying client
 
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