Discussion about Charges against Dr. Murray / all threads merged

[daphnieas]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Anyone knows about JudgingNoone ? She/He would be very helpful here .

 

[hilliver]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I wouldn't help Oxman cross the road, let alone anything else. I agree with Mesereau, if they go for a higher charge the chances are Murrey could get away with it. I hate the idea that the maximum he will get is 4 years, but that could be a long time if he is incarcerated with prisoners who loved Michael, and it looks like he might loose his licence to practice.

I would totally support any kind of petition that says if a doctor kills their patient by over prescribing or inappropriate prescribing as these so called Dr Feelgood's do, there should be an automatic substantial jail term, i.e. 10 years added to the manslaughter sentence. The attorney general had strong words about dealing with these doctors after the Anna Nicol tragedy, but nothing has been done yet.

Michael was different to Elvis, and the others in that he didn't help himself to a wrong dose, or mix pills, he was injected by a doctor, that makes the difference and the sentencing should reflect that kind of wrecklessness.

 

[MicHil]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I'm deff doing this, not because of Oxman, but for MJ.

I'll ask my friends after informing more to them about the case and going over the coronor's report with them. I have no doubts anymore.

Even if Murray walks, he won't get far.... err I'll trip him is what i meant ;-) huhu

 

[Cris123]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Is that in any way similar to "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

(courtesy of the Wizard of Oz)

Actually, DO pay attention to the men behind the curtain, and those who are paid to cover up murder

 

[Lacey]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

the malice bit is something i dont get interms of the way this law is written. maybe im reading it wrong but the wording of that implies to me u dont have to find actual malice on its own. but the actions of the below equal in the eyes of the law a degree of malice regadless of whether there was actual malice or not in the normal definition of the word. hence why it says Malice is implied if. and below is one of those things. so the action was so negligent it basically implies malice. so murray can be charged with murder 2 even if he did not have any malice under the normal defintion but his actions were so neglignet it implies he acted with some kind of malice

wanton disregard for human life, or an act involving a high degree of probability that death will result, or (b) conscious disregard for human life, i.e., doing something dangerous to human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and conscious disregard of the fact that the act endangers the life of someone.

I think it would be hard for the prosecution to prove malice, though, because Murray's defense would probably say he was negligent out of ignorance rather than malice because he is a cardiologist and not an anesthesiologist. Always remembering that criminal cases must be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. The burden of proof is much higher for the prosecution. So I would trust Mez - he knows better than Oxman - and he isn't the one going around assasinating MJ's reputation like Oxman. Also, now that Murray has been charged, it would take very strong evidence for a change to be made if it even can. I only wish that the sentencing was longer for IM.

 

[RockWithMichael4eva]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I'm with you. And most of the experts say that it's really hard to convict a doctor. They would have to find other patients that will say that Murray did not perform his job well as a doctor.

Brain Oxman in my opinion is a media whore just like Gloria Allred. He knows damn well that the procecutors will not change their case because of Michael Jackson fans. If they do, Murray will walk.

....I think Murray is giving his patients free care, or giving them any prescriptions they might want so that can testify for him, That is the only way I can see all these patient's saying he's a good doctor. Ain't NO WAY IN HELL would I go to any doctor who killed "ANYBODY" with propofol.

 

[RockWithMichael4eva]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

i dont care whether you like oxman or not. If you liked michael jackson, do what you can to help get higher charges placed on murray.

amen! Preach!

 

[RockWithMichael4eva]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

.......If Murray gets Probation, He will WALK FREE ANYWAYS! What harm can it possible do to charge this idiot with 2nd degree murder? AGAIN, with IM he can either serve 4 years which he probably WILL NEVER DO, Or Probation. I really don't see what they have to lose at this point.

 

[Rasta Pasta]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I am going with T-mez on this one ...not Oxman

 

[RockWithMichael4eva]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I am going with T-mez on this one ...not Oxman

I see what your saying, but there is nothing to lose if they charge Murray with 2nd degree Murder Charges, Chances are with IM, He will only do for years, maybe one with a flea bargin, or either probation.

 

[rainny]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

With this schooling he would have at least known Propofol would and should only be administered in a hospital while a patient is monitored by breathing machines and CPR is to be done on a hard surface not a bed.

He knew better, but he did it for the money.

There were not ' unusual circumstances' he wasn't aware of at all.

He knew what he was getting into.

 

[babybugz1]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I don't want them to up the charge and he walks , they won't charge him for murder so you can forget that.

 

[StarSecret]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

the malice bit is something i dont get interms of the way this law is written. maybe im reading it wrong but the wording of that implies to me u dont have to find actual malice on its own. but the actions of the below equal in the eyes of the law a degree of malice regadless of whether there was actual malice or not in the normal definition of the word. hence why it says Malice is implied if. and below is one of those things. so the action was so negligent it basically implies malice. so murray can be charged with murder 2 even if he did not have any malice under the normal defintion but his actions were so neglignet it implies he acted with some kind of malice

wanton disregard for human life, or an act involving a high degree of probability that death will result, or (b) conscious disregard for human life, i.e., doing something dangerous to human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and conscious disregard of the fact that the act endangers the life of someone.

I thought this too! That's why I really thought they would have gone with Murder II. In my opinion it's clear that he knew Michael's life was in danger and subsequently that the level of care he provided as the physician would prove to be critical in saving a life but seemingly disregarded this in the time-line by making superfluous phone calls and not making the one that MATTERED for sometime later (and this is even without mentioning the fact he's not qualified to administer propofol!)

But now this:

I think it would be hard for the prosecution to prove malice, though, because Murray's defense would probably say he was negligent out of ignorance rather than malice because he is a cardiologist and not an anesthesiologist. Always remembering that criminal cases must be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. The burden of proof is much higher for the prosecution. So I would trust Mez - he knows better than Oxman - and he isn't the one going around assasinating MJ's reputation like Oxman. Also, now that Murray has been charged, it would take very strong evidence for a change to be made if it even can. I only wish that the sentencing was longer for IM.

...sadly makes sense to me. Murray would so play the ignorant card and fight tooth and nail to discredit any implied malice. It's such a sh*tty situation because everything must be meticulously explained and backed in order to be sure of a conviction (which is great for the justice system in general, but frustrating for us). It really is a burden of proof - great phrase there.

So, when it comes down to it, I also side with T-Mez here. I want 4 of the crappest years of Murrays life rather than Murder II and a walk.

 

[pamarella]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

We can not use the excuse that Murray was Just a dumb ass doctor, his schooling would reflect otherwise:

- 1983 He got his Bachelor of science degree at Texas Southern University
- 1989 He got his Doctor of Medicine degree at Maharry Medical Collage Nashville
- 1992 He got his Internal Medicine degree at Loma Linda University Medical Center California
- 1995 He got his Cardiology degree at the University of Arizona Medical Center.

He is licensed in three states:


- Texas, this license expires on August 31th 2010
- Nevada, this license expires on June 30th 2011
- California, this license expires on February 28th 2011

With this schooling he would have at least known Propofol would and should only be administered in a hospital while a patient is monitored by breathing machines and CPR is to be done on a hard surface not a bed.

And for this reason, Murray could walk. He has a very impressive medical education and the jury could take this into consideration. If he has medical license in 3 states and there are no complaints from patients in those 3 states, Conrad Murray is going to walk. The jury will look at him as a doctor that worked exclusiviely for a celebrity and prescribed medicine for that celebrity at the wishes of that celebrity. People are well aware that this happens in the world of showbuisness. Keep in mind, having propofol outside of the hospital is not illegal and it wasn't illegal at the time of Michael's death. I bet you that the defense will bring this up. But the truth is that Michael will be put on trial. The jury will probably say that Murray was stupid and reckless but he is not a murderer.

 

[Gina_Marie]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

He was pretty old before his ''career'' got rolling, a late starter, Bachelor's degree at 30? WTF?
What did he do till 30? Besides going around sleeping with women?

From 1983 to 1995...yea, that's a pretty common age for docs to start practicing. It usually takes 7-10 years to become a doctor here in the US. Four years of med school, two to three years of residency e.g: Surgeon, OB/GYN, Anesthesiology..etc.. -then there is also two to three years of a Fellowship. Whew, I'm exhausted for even typing this, lol. All in all...Murray was clearly a well trained doc who went through some financial difficulties i.e.: Child Support woes and such.

Desperate times call for desperate measures...especially when money talks.

I'm just saying...

 

[Lacey]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

And for this reason, Murray could walk. He has a very impressive medical education and the jury could take this into consideration. If he has medical license in 3 states and there are no complaints from patients in those 3 states, Conrad Murray is going to walk. The jury will look at him as a doctor that worked exclusiviely for a celebrity and prescribed medicine for that celebrity at the wishes of that celebrity. People are well aware that this happens in the world of showbuisness. Keep in mind, having propofol outside of the hospital is not illegal and it wasn't illegal at the time of Michael's death. I bet you that the defense will bring this up. But the truth is that Michael will be put on trial. The jury will probably say that Murray was stupid and reckless but he is not a murderer.

Yes, but it could also be argued that with his impressive medical education and experience, he should have been fully aware of all protocols and should have known he was not qualified to use propofol.

I found this interesting:

"Disregarding the manufacturer's warnings against doing so, Dr. Murray administered a potent drug that is by nature appropriate only in a facility where there is proper monitoring, resuscitative and supportive drugs, supplies and equipment."

"A cardiologist (heart specialist) is not an anesthesiologist. Propofol is routinely used by only practitioners within the operating room world. No other specialty’s members would have a use for a drug designed for use in anesthesia. Thus, Dr. Murray was not qualified to administer propofol in his patient’s home."

"In summary, an otherwise well-intending physician strayed off path and entered an inappropriate medical arena for which he was neither trained nor experienced. Dr. Murray was out of his league. In fact, had a fully-qualified anesthesiologist instead been selected to be Michael's "sleep doctor", as bizarre as that might be, there probably would not have been that early and tragic end to Michael’s unique and productive life."

http://blogs.webmd.com/cosmetic-surgery/2010/02/michael-jacksons-doctor-indicted_10.html

 

[twinklEE]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

From 1983 to 1995...yea, that's a pretty common age for docs to start practicing. It usually takes 7-10 years to become a doctor here in the US. Four years of med school, two to three years of residency e.g: Surgeon, OB/GYN, Anesthesiology..etc.. -then there is also two to three years of a Fellowship. Whew, I'm exhausted for even typing this, lol. All in all...Murray was clearly a well trained doc who went through some financial difficulties i.e.: Child Support woes and such.

Desperate times call for desperate measures...especially when money talks.

I'm just saying...

I'm not talking about 1983-1995. I know that this is pretty common. But why did he get his bachelor's degree at 30 only? I'm 18 and will be done with my B.sc when I'm around 21/22.

 

[Ejacobs29]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Brian Oxman What a great response! Thank you everyone. Keep spreading the word. We are more powerful in numbers. We want justice for Michael Jackson. I want everyone to contact DA Steve Cooley at scooley@da.lacounty.gov and (213) 974-3512, and tell him the charges are not enough. This was reckless disregard of life and 2nd degree murder!

 

[Gina_Marie]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I'm not talking about 1983-1995. I know that this is pretty common. But why did he get his bachelor's degree at 30 only? I'm 18 and will be done with my B.sc when I'm around 21/22.

Ahh, I see what you're saying. Sorry about that

I looked up his bio and found this:

At the age of seven, Murray relocated to Trinidad and Tobago to live with his mother, where he became a citizen and finished high school. Like Milta, Murray was determined to make a better life for himself, demonstrating at an early age a propensity to work hard. After high school he volunteered as an elementary school teacher in Trinidad, an experience he followed with work as a customs clerk and an insurance underwriter in order to pay for his college education. Murray also wasn't afraid to take advantage of an opportunity. At the age of 19 he bought his first house, then later sold it for a decent profit to support his university tuition in the United States.
In 1980, two years after first visiting Houston and getting a chance to introduce himself to his father, Conrad Murray returned to Texas to enroll at Texas Southern University, where in just three years he graduated magna cum laude with a degree in pre-medicine and biological sciences.

http://www.biography.com/articles/Dr.-Conrad-Murray-481814

I guess it was the whole transition from Trinidad as well as a career change for why he obtained his bachelors so later on in life.
So, he was once an Insurance Underwriter...if only he stayed with that profession. Sigh*

 

[twinklEE]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Ahh, I see what you're saying. Sorry about that

I looked up his bio and found this:

At the age of seven, Murray relocated to Trinidad and Tobago to live with his mother, where he became a citizen and finished high school. Like Milta, Murray was determined to make a better life for himself, demonstrating at an early age a propensity to work hard. After high school he volunteered as an elementary school teacher in Trinidad, an experience he followed with work as a customs clerk and an insurance underwriter in order to pay for his college education. Murray also wasn't afraid to take advantage of an opportunity. At the age of 19 he bought his first house, then later sold it for a decent profit to support his university tuition in the United States.
In 1980, two years after first visiting Houston and getting a chance to introduce himself to his father, Conrad Murray returned to Texas to enroll at Texas Southern University, where in just three years he graduated magna cum laude with a degree in pre-medicine and biological sciences.

http://www.biography.com/articles/Dr.-Conrad-Murray-481814

I guess it was the whole transition from Trinidad as well as a career change for why he obtained his bachelors so later on in life.
So, he was once an Insurance Underwriter...if only he stayed with that profession. Sigh*

Ah ok, thanks . I guess u are right the change in profession caused the delay in his career. Regardless of what degrees he's got, he is a killer a true a**.

 

[pamarella]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Yes, but it could also be argued that with his impressive medical education and experience, he should have been fully aware of all protocols and should have known he was not qualified to use propofol.

I found this interesting:

"Disregarding the manufacturer's warnings against doing so, Dr. Murray administered a potent drug that is by nature appropriate only in a facility where there is proper monitoring, resuscitative and supportive drugs, supplies and equipment."

"A cardiologist (heart specialist) is not an anesthesiologist. Propofol is routinely used by only practitioners within the operating room world. No other specialty’s members would have a use for a drug designed for use in anesthesia. Thus, Dr. Murray was not qualified to administer propofol in his patient’s home."

"In summary, an otherwise well-intending physician strayed off path and entered an inappropriate medical arena for which he was neither trained nor experienced. Dr. Murray was out of his league. In fact, had a fully-qualified anesthesiologist instead been selected to be Michael's "sleep doctor", as bizarre as that might be, there probably would not have been that early and tragic end to Michael’s unique and productive life."

http://blogs.webmd.com/cosmetic-surgery/2010/02/michael-jacksons-doctor-indicted_10.html

Murray was reckless and stupid and irresponsible, but that doesn't mean that he is a cold blooded murderer. Are you saying that he killed Michael Jackson on purpose? If you believe this, then what proof do you have? That is not was the investigation proved and that is why involuntary manslaughter charges were filed. And what you found interesting, where does it said that Propofol outside of a hospital is illegal?

Again, Murray was reckless and stupid and irresponsible, but he didn't break any laws for giving Michael propofol. Why weren't charges filed for having Propofol illegally? Murray was basically charged for negligence. As a cardiologist, HOW DID MURRAY GET THE PROPOFOL? He had to get it from some medical supply or pharmacey or hospital. Who sold it to him? And please don't speculate about how he got it. The fact is that it wasn't illegal for him to have it outside of a hospital.

OK?????????????????? Who's fault is it for hiring Murray? Who was paying Murray's salary? Are you saying that Murray hired himself? Are you saying that Michael Jackson didn't have a say so on who his doctor should be? Who else knew about Murray? Didn't Michael Jackson have other doctor visits up until his death? There were pictures posted on this forum right before his death showing him going to visit Dr. Arnold Klein. Don't you think MIchael shared what was going on with the Propofol with other doctors?

 

[Datsymay]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

oxman is just afetr the money!

Can you people forget your hatred for once and focus on the big picture. Id you do not agree say so but leave the personality out of it. Please.

 

[Datsymay]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

As much as I want higher charges here, and I really do, this is far more than IM, we need to be realistic here. I would rather Murray found guilty of IM and serve jail time than on trial for 2nd degree murder then walk. 12 people need to be convinced that it was 2nd degree murder and that is going to be extremely hard. But, there's nothing wrong with putting a bit of pressure on the DA's office in the off chance that it might help.

Isn't it a case that the jury could find him not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter?

 

[xo_lola_xo]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I'm just so worried - Murray could walk...

OMG. I just hope he gets convincted.

 

[Lacey]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Murray was reckless and stupid and irresponsible, but that doesn't mean that he is a cold blooded murderer. Are you saying that he killed Michael Jackson on purpose? If you believe this, then what proof do you have? That is not was the investigation proved and that is why involuntary manslaughter charges were filed. And what you found interesting, where does it said that Propofol outside of a hospital is illegal?

Again, Murray was reckless and stupid and irresponsible, but he didn't break any laws for giving Michael propofol. Why weren't charges filed for having Propofol illegally? Murray was basically charged for negligence. As a cardiologist, HOW DID MURRAY GET THE PROPOFOL? He had to get it from some medical supply or pharmacey or hospital. Who sold it to him? And please don't speculate about how he got it. The fact is that it wasn't illegal for him to have it outside of a hospital.

OK?????????????????? Who's fault is it for hiring Murray? Who was paying Murray's salary? Are you saying that Murray hired himself? Are you saying that Michael Jackson didn't have a say so on who his doctor should be? Who else knew about Murray? Didn't Michael Jackson have other doctor visits up until his death? There were pictures posted on this forum right before his death showing him going to visit Dr. Arnold Klein. Don't you think MIchael shared what was going on with the Propofol with other doctors?

It was not illegal for Murray to purchase propofol, but having purchased and supposing he is a reasonably educated doctor, he would have been aware of the manufacture's warning about usage. He should also have been aware of his own limitations, as he is not an anesthesiologist. He also disregarded protocol for monitoring.

It does not matter that Michael hired him. It does not matter what treatment Michael may or may not have asked for. Murray CHOSE to use propofol. Knowing the risks, which he should have, he could have refused. He also should have known the monitoring procedures. He CHOSE not to have those in place. With the dosage of propofol that was used, Murray should have had procedures in place where he could have intubated Michael if there was breathing difficulty. He did not have that in place and did not intubate. Murray, as a supposedly educated doctor should have known he was NOT qualified to do this and he should have refused. He has NO EXCUSE not to have refused to do this. He has NO EXCUSE for not properly monitoring his patient.

IMO involuntary manslaughter is the correct charge because Murray was criminally negligent. I do feel that the sentencing for that particular charge is far too lenient in this case, though. I also believe he should lose his medical license permanently - especially as he, being a cardiologist, did not even administer CPR correctly.

 

[Datsymay]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I wouldn't help Oxman cross the road, let alone anything else. I agree with Mesereau, if they go for a higher charge the chances are Murrey could get away with it. I hate the idea that the maximum he will get is 4 years, but that could be a long time if he is incarcerated with prisoners who loved Michael, and it looks like he might loose his licence to practice.

I would totally support any kind of petition that says if a doctor kills their patient by over prescribing or inappropriate prescribing as these so called Dr Feelgood's do, there should be an automatic substantial jail term, i.e. 10 years added to the manslaughter sentence. The attorney general had strong words about dealing with these doctors after the Anna Nicol tragedy, but nothing has been done yet.

Michael was different to Elvis, and the others in that he didn't help himself to a wrong dose, or mix pills, he was injected by a doctor, that makes the difference and the sentencing should reflect that kind of wrecklessness.

4 years is a maximum charge. most criminnals do not get the maximum sextence. With murrays criminal record it is highly unlikely that he will get the maximum, then add to that he wouls only serve one third of whatever sentence he gets so he could actully be back practicing within months of trial.

 

[Lacey]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

4 years is a maximum charge. most criminnals do not get the maximum sextence. With murrays criminal record it is highly unlikely that he will get the maximum, then add to that he wouls only serve one third of whatever sentence he gets so he could actully be back practicing within months of trial.

That may or may not happen. However, I would rather have that happen and have him actually CONVICTED, than to have him charged with murder 2 and acquitted so that he will have the right proclaim himself innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever. And, of course, once acquitted, he can never be charged again and he can write and sell any book he wants to telling HIS side of the story. Much better to have him convicted, even if it is the lesser charge that can definitely be proven.

 

[emmah24]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Yes, but it could also be argued that with his impressive medical education and experience, he should have been fully aware of all protocols and should have known he was not qualified to use propofol.

Fully agree, it does Murray no favour whatsoever that he had attended various medical institutes in his education, yet still acted with complete disregard and incompetency. If anything it raises more questions over just why he acted in the way he did and points to something more sinister and deliberate than just human error.

 

[HeroR]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

That may or may not happen. However, I would rather have that happen and have him actually CONVICTED, than to have him charged with murder 2 and acquitted so that he will have the right proclaim himself innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever. And, of course, once acquitted, he can never be charged again and he can write and sell any book he wants to telling HIS side of the story. Much better to have him convicted, even if it is the lesser charge that can definitely be proven.

That book tour and stuff is not completely true. The family could take him to civil court and all the earnings he makes off of such ventures would go to the estate. They will not get any actually cash since Murray is broke, but it would prevent the media tour, much like OJ.

 

[Datsymay]

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I'm not talking about 1983-1995. I know that this is pretty common. But why did he get his bachelor's degree at 30 only? I'm 18 and will be done with my B.sc when I'm around 21/22.

Many people from poorer backgrounds have to struggle to put themselves through school and work to pay school fees. Dr Murray is from a THIRD WORLD country and from a WORKING CLASS Background. He was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth, so with some knowledge how how hard people from poorer backgrounds have to struggle to get a decent education, you could also calculate why it took him so long to get his first degree.
not everybody have the same opportunity.l